Boyz will be Boyz

[Judge]

*Mock Battle Report further down.*

Simply put, I'm not entirely certain how you're supposed to beat Boyz en masse. With very much the effectiveness of Assault Marines, but costing only a fraction of the price, their vulnerabilities are largely covered by easy to enact special circumstances, and they can present much more of a challenge than you'd expect.

115 - Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor
85 - Warboss, Power Klaw
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw

Boyz mobs are deadly because of a curious combination of excellent durability for cost and peculiar special rule manipulation. For the record, I have run 180+ model armies on a 6'x4' table, and they work quite well when you've the entirety of a 6' edge to deploy on, even with terrain covering 30% of it (not so well when you're running corner to corner).

The core of the army relies on a principle similar to the Necron Rez Orb style of "living wall" advance. Big Mek force fields give 5+ cover saves to any units within 6". Errata clarifies this to mean any unit with at least a single model within 6" of the Big Mek.

Deploy the mobs in three ranks each one to two models deep (varying based on terrain) with two side by side, each stretching outwards from center to their respective edges. The first rank has your Bosspoll squads, as they'll be taking the most immediate fire. The second rank has your independent characters - one in each squad - with the Big Mek very near the center (well within 6" of each squad). The third rank is comprised of squads that will maintain the majority of their fighting power, and push into the heart of the enemy. All models (save those wrapping around terrain) should be within 7" of your front lines. If the Big Mek or Warboss's squads come under serious fire, they can fall back to their third squads respectively during movement (switching from one rank to another).

Your Warboss is along for a Waaaagh! in Round 2 or 3 (Fast enemy assault armies like Blood Angels might land elements close enough to assault in the bottom of Round 1. Shooty enemies will probably stay near starting zones or fall back to delay hand to hand), depending on which round you can reach the enemy front en masse. Alternatively, you can replace him for cost with a Warphead, giving you a 1/3 chance of a Waaaagh! in any round (to include the first) if you're willing to risk a reroll, with a possibility of a nice auto-hitting Str 10 melta attack amongst other goodies (getting Line of Sight is a simple matter of leaving gaps in the first and second row just big enough for a Warphead to see a target).

Embedded Nobs are your method for dealing with vehicles. Charging, a Nob gets 4 Str 9 powerfist attacks against armour on the charging round. In a single round, this is often not enough to kill armour that's moved or walkers, but it will almost certainly cause lesser effects that will make things easier on subsequent rounds, or allow you to walk past and ignore the vehicles. Remember, against vehicles without weapon skills you have to charge every round to attack them. Embedded Nobs also give you a method of dealing with nasty special characters (ala Mephiston), and large mob sizes leave you fearless until over half the models are dead.

You'd think that with this many models jammed together it would be Template Heaven for kills, but, given the 5+ cover save, that's surprisingly not the case. Say you fire a Battle Cannon that hits 10 Orks? 1/6 odds of rolling 1s leaves 8.33 wounds, and the 5+ cover reduces this to 5.6 wounds total - quite manageable for a direct hit given 6 point wounds, and many large templates will deviate to hit fewer, even given such large mobz. Flamers, as someone noted, are an exception to this, but unless an enemy knows what's coming and specifically tailors his army to countering it, odds of enough flamers to effect the outcome are shockingly small.

Imperial Guard massed lasgun fire won't save Guardsmen. Bolter fire (to include massed Heavy Bolters) won't save Marines. Pulse Rifles won't even begin to save Tau (or Kroot), and Gauss weapons won't save Necrons. Tyranids are completely out to lunch. Feel free to run simple shooting comparisons yourself - say two rounds of normal fire and one round of rapid fire before assault to be generous, with the Orks running instead of shooting back.

Assault armies usually won't kill more than a quarter of the Orks before melee begins, shooty armies usually won't kill more than half, and once in combat, Boyz drag their betters down pound for pound like pirahna eating a lion. This includes assault squads you'd think would do better, like marine assault squads, Death Company, Terminators, Monstrous Creatures, at least one of the C'tan, and yes, Mephiston, but certainly includes weaker squads like Hormagaunts and Kroot as well. Eldrad Ulthran, even assuming only 6 normal Boyz could attack him at a time, would get spanked like a weak kitten.

Perhaps funniest of all, practically every squad is a scoring unit.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I've run preliminary numbers on a significant number of largely disfavorable scenarios, and it's surprising how well Orks come out. Absent a 100% flame tailored army (or maybe even with it), can anyone think of a good way to deal with this? If you know it's coming, perhaps you can run a tank army and simply outrange them the whole game (eldar falcons with 24" moves to break through lines that get too close), but what normal army's going to be prepared for this?


Boyz vs. Blood Angels Mock Battle Report

To be taken with a grain of salt, as odds and tactics can vary wildly (as I'll freely admit, though we'll surely see a few idiots point out the obvious anyway). Because there is truth behind numbers, however, a sample of how effective Boyz can be is more telling than your typical dismissive (numbertarded) blatherskeit or singular, often exceptional experiences.

I made a few assumptions regarding tactics and layout, and surely forget a few rules in the process of running the mock report (which relies on individual averages - the odds of actually seeing a battle run just like this are pretty far out, but deviation can occur either way). Quite a few assumptions favor the Blood Angels, though (especially to include no objectives to fight over). Primarily, I'm running this just to show how effective Boyz can be - not mass Ork mobs. This isn't a "lookit how cheap Gretchin are!" thread, nor is it a "I can't run numbers, so I'll make some claims I can't back up with averages, experience (how many people run or fight all Boyz armies?), or even an intelligent guess based on the slightest effort towards either!" thread. A simple numbers comparison will show you how well Boyz stand up to lasguns, bolters, pie plates, or an autonomous anarchist commune deriving its power from a mandate from the masses, so I won't draw things out unless you really, really need me to.

Please do tell me if you think I'm softballing the Blood Angels force.

250 - Mephiston
200 - 5 Sanguinary Guard
180 - Furiosa, frag cannon, Drop Pod w. Deathwind Launcher
180 - Furiosa, frag cannon, Drop Pod w. Deathwind Launcher
380 - 7 Death Company, Land Raider Redeemer
180 - Death Company Dreadnought, Drop Pod w. Deathwind Launcher
130 - 5 man Devastator Squad w. Rocket Launchers

115 - Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor
85 - Warboss, Power Klaw
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw

Turn 1, Round 1

Blood Angels get the first round.

Mephiston moves 11", hides in cover.
Sanguinary Guard moves 11", hides in cover.
Two Furiosas land on opposite flanks.
Frag Cannons each hit 14 Orks total. 10 dead Orks each.
Deathwind Launchers each hit 8 Orks. 4 dead Orks each.
Land Raider moves forward 6". Twin-linked assault cannons hit Orks. 2 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 3 (factoring in misses) Orks. 4 dead Orks.

Total Ork casualties: 34. Distributed: 13 dead from each front squad. 3 dead from each second squad. 1 dead from each 3rd squad.

Turn 1, Round 2

Ork first and second squads on each flank advance, running, pushing in towards center, gaining 8" towards center, 6" towards flanks. Ork third squads on each flank push towards Dreads for assault.
Ork third squads assault. 13 Boyz from each reach the Dreadnaughts - Nobs make it within 2". 4 Boyz from each flank Dreads to hit rear.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 4 attacks each. Each score .66 penetrating hits - .22 odds of dead Dread each. 4 Boyz on each attack rear armour. 4 attacks each. 1.33 glancing hits on each.
Squads pull in.

Total Ork casualties: 3.3 (37.3). Blood Angel Casualties: 1.33 penetrating hits, 2.66 glancing hits.

Turn 2, Round 1

Death Company Dreadnought delayed.
Mephiston moves forward 3", fires plasma pistol. .46 dead Orks.
Sanguinary Guard moves forward 3", fires Boltguns. 2.22 dead Orks.
Deathwind Launchers each hit 3 Orks. 1.33 dead Orks each.
Land Raider moves forward 6". Twin-linked assault cannons hit Orks. 2 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 3 (factoring in misses) Orks. 4 dead Orks.
Death Company assaults from Land Raider.
Mephiston and Sanguinary Guard assault.
Mephiston strikes first. 6 attacks. 4.44 dead Orks. Sanguinary Guard strikes second. 3.75 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 1.25 dead Sanguinary Guard.
Death Company strikes first. 10.37 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 1.25 dead Death Company.
Both Ork squads break. (1 Nob, 2 Boyz, 1 Nob 1 Boyz). Left to run off table edge. Blood Angels consolidate back.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each.

Total Ork Casualties: 37.2 (74.5). Blood Angel Casualties: 1, .5 (1.83) penetrating hits, 0 (2.66) glancing hits.

Turn 2, Round 2

Ork second squads move forward and inward. Waaagh! Run, assault. Warboss and Big Mek join squad not fighting Mephiston for assault on Death Company.
17 Orks each squad reach melee to include Nobz (from middle) and ICs (from center).
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Sanguinary Guard strikes simultaneously. 2 dead Orks. Nob strikes simultaneously. 1.67 dead Sanguinary Guard. 10 Orks strike. 40 attacks. 1.67 dead Sanguinary Guard. Orks are Fearless. 4.75 dead Orks.
Warboss strikes first. 5 attacks. 2.08 dead Death Company. Death Company strikes simultaneously. 3.33 dead Orks. Big Mek strikes simultaneously. 4 attacks. 1.67 dead Death Company. Nob strikes simultaneously. 4 attacks. 1.67 dead Death Company. 11 Boyz strike. 44 attacks. Last Death Company dies.
Warboss squad spreads out for consolidation.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each.

Total Ork Casualties: 15.4 (89.9). Blood Angel Casualties: 10 (11), .5 (2.33) penetrating hits, 0 (2.66) glancing hits.

Turn 3, Round 1

Death Company Dreadnought lands near Warboss squad. Fires Storm Bolter and Meltagun. .81 dead Orks.
Deathwind Launcher hits 8 Orks. 3.55 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2 (factoring in misses) Orks. 2.67 dead Orks.
Land Raider Tank Shocks Warboss squad, stopping in middle. Flames both sides. 6 Orks on each side hit. 10 dead Orks.
Orks take leadership test (Warboss). Pass.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Sanguinary Guard strikes. 2 attacks. .5 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 2 attacks. Sanguinary Guard dead. 16 Boyz strike. 48 attacks. .67 wounds to Mephiston.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each.

Total Ork Casualties: 24.6 (114.5). Blood Angel Casualties: 1 (12), .5 (2.83) penetrating hits, 0 (2.66) glancing hits.

Turn 3, Round 2

Warboss squad moves into rough coherency, charges Land Raider.
Warboss strikes. 5 attacks. 1.25 penetrating hits. .42 odds of dead Land Raider. Big Mek strikes. 4 attacks. .66 penetrating hits. .22 (.64) odds of dead Land Raider. Nob strikes. 4 attacks. .66 penetrating hits. .22 (.86) odds of dead Land Raider. Dead Land Raider. 50/50 odds of explosion killing 1.8 Orks.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 3 attacks. 1.25 (1.92) wounds. 8 Boyz strike. 24 attacks. .33 (2.25) wounds. Ork pass leadership.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each. 1 Dreadnought dies. Orks consolidate towards center.

Total Ork Casualties: 7.9 (122.4). Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), 1 Land Raider Redeemer, 1 Furiosa Dreadnought.

Turn 4, Round 1

Death Company Dreadnought approaches Warlord Squad. Fires Storm Bolter and Meltagun. .81 dead Orks.
Deathwind Launchers hit 5 Orks. 2.4 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2.5 (factoring in misses). 3.33 dead Orks.
Warboss squad (Now Warboss, Big Mek and lone Nob) take Leadership test. Pass.
Death Company Dreadnought charges Warboss squad.
Death Company Dreadnought strikes. Assigns all hits to Warboss. 5 attacks. Warboss dies. (Not assigning hits, or splitting them, leave strong odds of Warboss surviving. If hits not assigned, Big Mek and Nob would die, Warboss would survive to attack rear armour. Warboss alone would cause more penetrating hits, and be less vulnerable to Devastators). Big Mek and Nob strike rear armour. 2 penetrating hits. Death Company Dreadnought destroyed. Big Mek and Nob split up, consolidate behind Land Raider wreckage.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 3 attacks. 1.25 (3.5) wounds. 4 Boyz strike. 12 attacks. .16 (3.66) wounds. Orks fail leadership. Retreat.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (.62)penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 16.9 (139.3), 1 Warboss. Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (.62) penetrating hits, 1 dead Death Company Dreadnought.

Turn 4, Round 2

Ork squad that killed Furiosa moves towards Mephiston. Shoots 20 shoota shots. .19 (3.85) wounds. Assaults Mephiston.
Big Mek and Nob move around to assault Drop Pod on far side from Devastator squad. Assault.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 3 attacks. 1.25 (5.10) wounds. Mephiston dies. Squad sweeping advances towards cover/Big Mek and spreads out.
Big Mek and Nob strike. 8 attacks. 4 penetrating hits. Drop pod destroyed. .67 odds of blowing up d6 inches causing .22 wounds.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (.87) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 5.5 (144.8). Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), 1 dead Mephiston, .25 (.87) penetrating hits, 1 dead Drop Pod.

Turn 5, Round 1

Deathwind Launcher hits 3 Orks. 1.33 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2.5 (factoring in misses). 3.33 dead Orks.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.12) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 6.3 (151.1). Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (1.12) penetrating hits.

Turn 5, Round 2

Ork Big Mek switches to larger surviving squad. Moves and runs towards Devastator squad.
Lone Nob works his way towards lone Drop Pod, staying out of its Line of Sight in terrain.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.37) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 1.67 (152.8). Total Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (1.37) penetrating hits.

1/3 odds Game Ends. Game continues.

Turn 6, Round 1

Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2 (factoring in misses). 1.78 dead Orks. Orks pass leadership test.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.62) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 3.4 (156.2). Total Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (1.62) penetrating hits.

Turn 6, Round 2

Big Mek squad moves towards Devastator squad. Shoots 11 slugga shots. .6 dead Devastators. Assaults.
Nob moves towards Drop Pod, staying out of its Line of Sight in terrain. Runs.
Devastators strike simultaneously. 5 attacks. 1 dead Ork. Big Mek and Nob strike. 8 attacks. 3.3 dead Devastators. 8 Boyz strike. 32 attacks. 2.67 wounds (1.1 dead Devastators). Devastators dead. Big Mek sweeping advances back south towards surviving Dreadnought.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.87) penetrating hits.

Total Ork Casualties: 2.67 (159). Total Blood Angel Casualties: 5 (17), .25 (1.87) penetrating hits.

1/2 (67%) odds Game Ends. Game Ends.

Odds are over 62% that the final Furiosa would be dead.

Survivors:

Orks: 3 squads (3 Nobz, 18 Boyz), Big Mek.
Blood Angels: 2 Drop Pods.



1:13,.46,2.22,1.33,4.44,3.75 (break)
2:13,2,4,1.33,10.37 (break)
3:3,3.7,2,4.75,3.7,.5,3.7,3.7 (break)
4:3,3.33,.81,3.55,2.67,10,.9,.81,1.2,3.33, (Nob left)
5:1,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67, 1.67,1.67 (12.3 left)
6:1,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.2,3.7,1.33,3.33,1.7 8, 1 (8.6 left + Big Mek)


I'm not saying that Boyz will always win like this (though how many other armies can field nothing but massive squads of scoring units and stand a chance at victory?), even though they did perform pretty well against templates (key being max-sized squads to wound soak along with staying in Mek range whenever possible - don't even start rolling for leadership until 2/3rds of the squad's dusted). I am saying that Boyz are pretty badass, and that any game with objectives is going to force a confrontation sooner than any shooty army's going to want one.

My poor, poor Necrons only have Monoliths and Nightbringer's special abilities going for them (although note that these models don't help your Phase Out count any). Anything else they've got will get steamrolled by a green tide of averages. What on earth do Eldar have coming?

[DarkLink]

I played a game with my 1000pt list (2 Land Raiders, 2 6 man GK squads with 2 Incinerators each, and a Brother Captain with a psycannon) against an ork army with 101 models. I won. It was awesome. I was outnumbered nearly 7to 1.

Anyways, in the whole game my opponent only managed to kill one Land Raider, via a biker Warboss. The unit inside promptly wiped the table with the squad that tried to block the Land Raider exits. At the end of the game, I had one Land Raider and my Brother Captain, and he had the remains of a single squad of boyz.

[Sir Biscuit]

Well, first, no stat goes above ten, so you still have the DOOM to worry about. Though given your number of bodies, less so than a lot of other people.

Second, this kind of army is actually very, very easy to deal with. 6 30 man boyz squads takes up a LOT of room, and they don't move terribly fast. That means that they either have to deploy across a large area of their deployment zone, or they have to hold units in reserve. Neither are a great option for this type of army. In addition, how exactly were you planning on getting all six units under one KFF? Two, three max. The rest suffer the wrath of templates.

Since they are either deploying all across the field, or holding guys in reserve, and none of them are mounted, it means that a refused flank is ESPECIALLY effective. No opponent in their right mind would deploy spread out across their deployment zone and engage units one-on-one.

You may also want to run some numbers on how good those powerclaws actually are at killing mech. A power claw has 4 S9 attacks on the charge, which means you might get one pen on a vehicle moving over 6". If it moves less, you might get two, but that hardly guarantees a kill. Against anything that moves over 6" they really suffer. Land speeders are doubly good here, as they can move 12" and fire a heavy flamer and also jump in front of squads to block movement and deny assaults. Speaking of blocking assaults and movement, empty transports can do the same thing. Also, what does this list do if your opponent takes even a single land raider? One warboss is not a great answer.

Given the deployment restrictions and the slower speed of an unmechanized force, the important question is not "what can take 6 boyz squads at a time?" but rather, "what can take a boys squad, six times in a row?" The answer to that is, well, most armies in the game.

While a 30 man boys squad appears good on paper and in labs, on the tabletop they're not nearly so scary. There's a reason that Green Tide isn't winning any tourneys, and it's not because no one's thought about it or tried it.

[DarkLink]

Right, the biggest weakness of the list is the inability to deal with mech very well.

The big thing to ensure against orks is to avoid getting charged. Use transports to wall off a unit, both to clump them up and to avoid a counter charge, then flamer it to death. Rinse and repeat.

[plasticaddict]

I'veplayed against this type of list many times. It's a great list fluff wise and if you are facing an army that is kitted out to kill lots of mech it can hold it's own, but aginst a well rounded list your opponent will chew you up. It's a fun list to play with and against but it's just not very effective.

[Judge]

Biscuit, if you don't even know how to get a single model each from six squads within 6" of a single model, then please don't bother commenting anymore. Your claimed inability to place or manage models over a full six foot table edge might describe a unique incapacity you suffer from, but more probably indicates that you've never tried. As for numbers, I've run plenty. Let's see you run some. "Might" is not a result on the vehicle damage table. More than anything else, site your reference for claiming that "no stat goes above ten," as if it's in the main rulebook or an errata and you can prove as much, I'll have a correction to make, rendering your post useful for something.

Dark, beating an Ork fielding 101 models doesn't mean anything particularly. You can field 120 Gretchin for 480 points, and they aren't the same thing at all. Based on your stated experience, I'd think I was in trouble for not having a Warboss on a bike! I'm specifically referring to melee configured Boyz with embedded powerfists (Klaws) and universal 5+ cover. List the configuration for your "unit in the Land Raider" and I'll show you how the math plays out.

plastic, put up or shut up.

[Sam]

p. 6 of the BRB: "However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0."

p. 36 of the BRB: "To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lower to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."

So yeah, no stat can go above 10, and the KFF does not help you in assault. The "Assaulting Through Cover" portion of the rule book is referring to assaulting through difficult and dangerous terrain, not assaulting units that have a cover save.

[Sir Biscuit]

Getting a single model from each squad within six isn't hard, no, but it means that you have to keep all your squads, which in this case means the entire army, in one gigantic massed ball. If you think that isn't an enormous tactical mistake, then you need to spend less time on the calculator and more on the tabletop. Assuming you can keep at least one guy from every unit in the army in that 6" radius is ****ing absurd, it's like a blood angels player claiming that a single Sanguinary Priest is enough to guarantee the entire army FNP and FC.

A VERY common tactic for shooty armies is to split into two forces and deploy on opposite sides. What happens then? Suddenly the giant death star is a lot less threatening. A smart opponent will give you first turn, (basically forcing you to deploy in the center) guaranteeing that he can deploy as far away from you as possible, and split his forces as needed. Then it takes you a minimum 3 turns to get to the enemy. (9.5" move and run for the first two turns, and 15.5" WAAGGHH on the third.) Even if we assume the opponent is not smart enough to movement and charge block, and that they simply stay in their transports, that's another turn spent tankbusting. 4 turns of shooting at Orks may not be able to kill all 180 of them, but it can certainly whittle them down to a manageable size. After that, they assault the front line of stuff, (opponents choice!) and then get shot again. Or assaulted depending on how many exist at that point.

Not to mention the amount of units that you simply don't have an answer to. How about dreadnoughts, especially those fancy new Furioso Dreads that everyone's suddenly so fond of? Your only way to kill them is to wait until your powerfist eventually cracks that AV13. Sure, you'll probably do it eventually, and before you run out of boys, but how much time will you lose doing it? Walkers are common, and show up a lot. IG have armored sentinels, Chaos has Defilers, and every marine list has dreads, and none of these are uncommon. Warboss isn't a good solution either- most dreads will be able to instant kill him and pick him out due to his IC status. And of course, what is the answer to the ever-popular land raider?

Even without any common counter units showing up, what do you do in objective missions? In Capture & Control, you have to leave one of your boys mobs behind. That's not too bad. But in Sieze Ground you have potentially five objectives to fight for, and then you can either stay in your death star or split up and eat dirt. There's not a lot of good options for you there.

"Da Green Tide" is not really that uncommon of an army build. It's the first build everyone thinks of when they see how cheap boyz are. It was the default list people were using when 4th turned into 5th. It's not a particularly good one, for the same reason that taking 30 TH/SS Terminators doesn't make for a good build: they're durable, numerous, kick *** in melee, but at the end of they day they're slow, have to melee to kill ANYTHING, are predictable, and get their day ruined by armies that happened to bring a common counter. (Bloodletters, Null Zone Librarians, a whole bunch of lasguns, etc.)

Ork boys are not a bad unit. However, a clustered, one-dimensional, mono-directional, all-infantry, all melee army IS bad... in fact it's close to the worst list (from a tactical standpoint) that one could build.

[Judge]

Thanks for the clarification, Sam - changing the original post.

Biscuit, did you see how Sam did that just now? That's how you make a point. That large blarg of blatherskeit you threw up just now when I asked for numbers would fall under the heading of "please don't bother commenting anymore," so thanks for wasting your own time.

[navajas]

Judge, you're posting like such an +++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ it's hard to come to your support.

I've played massive Ork hordes for a long time. Math on them is great. I know this. I have a lengthy background in probability and statistics. One thing I learned when running my numbers, which you didn't even mention, is that shootaz are far better, if shot only one time, than the extra attack from sluggaz. Every time you shoot them your marginal gain goes up. This is significant. Ork hordes with shootaz out shoot most armies.

If shootaz cost an extra point, as I think they probably should, they'd still be better. They more than double your options, and significantly increase the E(x) of kills against all targets. It is a complete no brainer at a free swap for foot sloggers. MAYBE if you're mounted would you take choppaz, since you could conceivably not fire the shootaz, but only maybe.

Next, every single point made above is perfectly valid, and by dismissing them offhand, you are not only acting like a cliche'+++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ , but denying yourself useful information. Mech really IS a huge problem with this list. You will find it +++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ hard to get those charges you are relying on unless your opponent is asleep. You are right, you have less to fear from a few blasts than most would assume, but dismissing those flamer templates is not a good idea.

You ARE SLOW, Waaaagh! regardless. When bunched like this you are only as fast as your front rank. If EITHER ONE of them screws their run roll your whole army suffers. In the first two turns, while all huddled around that Mek, if you roll a single run spot of 3 or less (the probability of which is around .95) you've just lost a turn. God help you if you roll two or more those.

Monsters and dreadnaughts can basically neutralize an entire squad on a one for one basis. Your Nobs will need AT LEAST 4s to glance on hits, and that's often not enough to end a fight. If it's venerable, write it off: You're not killing it. Against wraith lords you'll need 6s. That's not happening any time soon. Adding in getting shot up on the way in, losing whole a quarter or more of your army to a walker/monster or two hurts like hell. This happens, don't dismiss it. It's a brutal reality to watch a whole mob neutered for turn after turn by a single dread, him squishing one or two, while your claw goes tinkle tinkle on its hide.

There's just a lot more to this army than math, especially since EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE F'ING GAME is now mounted. Yes, I run a massive green horde, but it has a few trukks in it. A few trukks cost less than 100 points and makes your army about 5x better. You still have massive numbers in your favor, but you have some mobility. Seriously, this game is mech. I hate it, I think it's god damned stupid how little transports cost for how much better they instantly make the unit inside it, but that's the game. It's not our fault, but you can't ignore it.