Adepta Sororitas & Ordo Hereticus

[eldargal]

Well, after having it pointed out to me that Codex: Witch Hunters does in face explicity state that the Adepta Sororitas act as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus (pages two and six), this got me thinking; Does this mean that the Adepta Sororitas ARE actually part of the Inquisition?

I think not, I will explain why below. But what do other people think?

First, the fluff state that the Adepta Sororitas agree to act as the Chamber Militant of the organisation, when called on to do so by a duly appointed Inquisitor. This to me indicates that the Inquisition still have to ask, which means the Adepta Sororitas can refuse (whether they choose to exercisethis right is irrelevent). This is not the actions of a subordinate part of the same organisation.

Second, this arrangement seems to be simply a more formalised form of the usual Imperial procedure which allows an Inquisitor to requisition whatever forces he deems necessary, up to and including entire planets.

Third, the fluff goes on to state that the Adepta Sororitas remain under the auspices of the Ecclesiarchy and retain the responsibilities given to them by Sebastian Thor. This seems to me to indicate the original agenda still stands alongside that of the Ordo Hereticus and that at an institutional and administrative level the Adepta Sororitas are NOT part of the Inquisition.

Fourth, in theory at least like any treaty the Convocation of Nephilim could be revoked, meaning the Adepta Sororitas would cease to be the militant wing of the Ordo Hereticus. No indication is ever given that the Grey Knights or Deathwatch could ever split from their respective Ordos.

To sum up, I think that while the Adepta Sororitas are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they are not part of that institution and could cease to be the Chamber Militant by revoking the Convocation of Nephilim

[Melissia]

Which is exactly what I've been saying. The Convocation of Nephilim is nothing more than an agreement of "hey, we think alike and have similar goals; so let's help eachother".

Furthermore? The Sisters are, in the end, loyal only to one authority. It is neither the Inquisition they are truly loyal to, nor the Ecclesiarchy... but the Emperor. It is up to each Sister how best to serve the Emperor, not the Inquisition, nor the Ecclesiarchy. They will not hesitate for an instant to attack an Inquisitor that shows signs of disloyalty to the Emperor. Any Inquisitor that is not like-minded is very careful around the Sisterhood.

In Dark Heresy: Ascension, obtaining the help of the Sisterhood is second only to obtaining the help of a Space Marine chapter in difficulty.

[Kahoolin]

I tend to think that the treaty could be revoked, but that until it is, the Sororitas are in fact subordinate to the Inquisition. As you said, they are required to serve when called upon, which of course means that they could say no, but then presumably there would be diplomatic consquences. Anyone can say no to an Inquisitor, it just has repercussions. The Sororitas seem to have formally and specifically agreed that they will serve, which is more than the general commitment all Imperial officials have.

I think the idea that the Sororitas are somehow not really under the power of the Inquisition comes from old school players to whom the current codex seems like a retcon. This view happens to prevail on these boards, so it is easy to forget that to many relatively recent players the sisters are servants of the OH, and the codex says so. That's my two cents.

This question of conflicting loyalty has [URL="http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3917"]bothered me before.[/URL] For example, what would happen if an Inquisitor ordered some Sororitas to capture and execute a Cardinal?

[eldargal]

I think the key is that the Adepta Sororitas agree to be subservient, whereas the Grey Knights and Deathwatch have no choice. The Grey Knights don't agree to act as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they just are the Chamber Militant.
Saying no to the Inquisition has repercussions certainly, but the Ecclesiarchy is THE official church and most powerful organisation in the entire Imperium bureaucracy. If anyone could tell an Inquisitor were to go it would be their Chamber Militant.

I tend to think that the treaty could be revoked, but that until it is, the Sororitas are in fact subordinate to the Inquisition. As you said, they are required to serve when called upon, which of course means that they could say no, but then presumably there would be diplomatic consquences. Anyone can say no to an Inquisitor, it just has repercussions. The Sororitas seem to have formally and specifically agreed that they will serve, which is more than the general commitment all Imperial officials have.

I think the idea that the Sororitas are somehow not really under the power of the Inquisition comes from old school players to whom the current codex seems like a retcon. This view happens to prevail on these boards, so it is easy to forget that to many relatively recent players the sisters are servants of the OH, and the codex says so. That's my two cents.

This question of conflicting loyalty has [URL="http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3917&highlight=sororitas+loyaltie s"]bothered me before.[/URL] For example, what would happen if an Inquisitor ordered some Sororitas to capture and execute a Cardinal?

[Melissia]

Anyone can say no to an Inquisitor, it just has repercussions

Not always. The Sisters, the Astartes, Imperial Navy fleet commanders, lord governors, and so on you must leverage more than just your inquisitorial authority to obtain favors from these individuals. Furthermore, in order to wield such authority, the Inquisitor must openly reveal who they are, which itself is often dangerous to both their investigations and their lives. So most of the time they don't.

And even then? It depends on the authority of the Inquisitor in specific. A newly minted Inquisitor often has less authority than a hive-world's governor, for example, while a Lord Inquisitor's reach is truly great. But even then, specific Lord Inquisitors-- the leaders of conclaves-- are even more powerful. And let's not even get into singular individuals such as the High Lords of Terra, or the Ecclesiarch...

[Kahoolin]

I think the key is that the Adepta Sororitas agree to be subservient, whereas the Grey Knights and Deathwatch have no choice. The Grey Knights don't agree to act as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they just are the Chamber Militant.

That's true. So it seems like there are different degrees of loyalty towards the Inquisition.

I suppose I thought of the Convocation as being a stronger tie of loyalty than the general responsibility of Imperial officials to aid an Inquisitor, because it is so specific. Maybe it isn't stronger though. Maybe it's just like any of the specific treaties between various Astartes chapters and the Inquisition?

Not always. The Sisters, the Astartes, Imperial Navy fleet commanders, lord governors, and so on you must leverage more than just your inquisitorial authority to obtain favors from these individuals. Furthermore, in order to wield such authority, the Inquisitor must openly reveal who they are, which itself is often dangerous to both their investigations and their lives. So most of the time they don't.

Good point. I guess though by "repercussions" I was thinking diplomatic repercussions between the Orders and the Ordo. After all, what's the point of pledging aid if it's only when you feel like it? Every time the Sororitas refuse a call from the Ordo Hereticus without a damn good reason it weakens the strength of the agreement to function as Chamber Militant. So I assume they wouldn't refuse often.

[Melissia]

But that agreement goes both ways, Kahoolin.

A Canoness might refuse an unknown Inquisitor who hasn't proven his/herself, because she already has important duties-- or because, well, he/she hasn't proven him/herself. And one whom is rumored to have veered to the path of Radicalism? They had better be good at covering up, or else they might end up being burned alive.

[Kahoolin]

So you mean part of it is that the OH agrees not to call on the Sisters constantly for petty reasons? I can see that.

[Melissia]

How I understand it is that they agree to help eachother out because their goals are similar.

Which could mean, for example, that the Ordo Hereticus would help the Sisters root out and destroy a Temple Tendency cell in exchange for future favors.

[eldargal]

I think the wording 'duly appointed Inquisitor' is telling. I may well be wrong but it sounds to me as if a single Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus has to be granted permission (appointed) to invoke the Convocation, a random Inquisitor, however senior, can not just roll up to a SoB Order and request service from them. This would mean that the Convocation 'formalising' the arrangement between the Adepta Sororitas and the Ordo Hereticus is not just formalising in the sense of making it official, but also putting in place a formal structure to the requests for aid. I hope this makes sense, and all this is just my interpretation of the text so I'm not saying its set in stone.

And yes, it is a treaty so the Adepta Sororitas must get something in return for foregoing full autonomy. No mention is made of what they may be. I doubt it is anything so vulgar as wealth and resources, giving the puritan nature of the Sororitas and the fact that the Ecclesiarchy is phenomenally wealthy.