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  1. #1

    Default TL;DR: On Maturity

    June 2016 – On Maturity.

    ’Hey, look at this. It’s called ‘Akira’… And it’s a cartoon. How can it be 15 certificate?’

    I was in my teens when anime ‘first’ made its way to the UK. I say first, but honestly, we’d all grown up with ‘Dogtanian and the Three Muskehounds’ so any child of the 80’s who’d grown up with Philip Schofield and the Broom Cupboard already had a fairly solid idea about what it was. No, what I mean was that the very first ‘adult’ anime had made it to UK shores.

    There were only two of them at first: weird-looking cartoons with names like ‘Akira’, and ‘Urotsukidoji’ that – for reasons my brother and I couldn’t wrap our heads around – had a 15 and an 18 certificate respectively. To say this blew our minds would be an understatement: [i]how]/i] could a cartoon possibly qualify for anything higher than a PG?

    Needless to say, rampant curiosity left me desperate to see them, but without the money or advancement in years and with the internet a distant future-dream, all I could do was look at the tiny pictures on the back of the VHS boxes… and wonder.

    Now, these were the days when the UK had exactly four channels, and the idea that any of them would show these apparently hyper-violent sex cartoons from Japan? It was almost laughable.

    Imagine my delight then, when Channel 4 began including anime on its Friday ‘Late License’ slot. Given that this was the same channel which used to show [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8z4a86aggU]‘The Word’[/url], their willingness to show weird Japanese cartoons wasn’t a massive surprise.

    Thus it was that the first anime I ever saw was called ‘Cyber City Oedo 808’. Sat there as the credits rolled on the very first 15-certificate cartoon I would ever see, I didn’t know what to expect…


    The two-thousands as pictured by the eighties, that’s what.

    I was deeply underwhelmed. I mean, it was… kinda fun? But sweet mercy, it was just so dumb. Like, there are dumb shows, dumber shows, ‘The Big Bang Theory’, and then, this show. Honestly, it wasn’t all that different from any of the cartoons I’d grown up with as a child. The style of animation was long familiar from hallowed BBC childrens’ staples like ‘Dogtanian’, or maybe ‘Ulysses 31’ or ‘Lost Cities of Gold’, so it certainly wasn’t as new as I’d been promised. And sure, there’s a couple of [url=https://youtu.be/-NRb_7W0Ffc?t=2008]supremely violent deaths[/url], but mostly? It just sort of felt like the same sort of stuff I’d seen before. It was just… A kid’s cartoon. Nothing more. There was certainly nothing to really justify the ‘adult’ certificate.

    Well, that’s not really true. There was one thing, and it was the only thing I’d noticed: the script.

    Sweet merciful Athena, the script.

    The Trappings of Aduldhood

    I don’t think I can name a script that uses curse words as much as ‘Cyber City Oedo 808’s.

    Tarantino doesn’t swear as much.

    At first, I was a little confused. Why all the foul language. But as the episode played out like a typical episode of ‘He-Man’, it wasn’t difficult to see what was going on. The cartoons were basically generic action stories with little to recommend them, which leaves the marketers a problem: how do you make that sort of thing stand out on the shelves? You could sell it to the kids, but it’s a bit too complex for them. You need to sell this to adults, but in the UK? Where cartoons are for kids? No chance. If there’s a ‘U’ certificate on the thing, no adult’s going to look at it twice. There’s no way to add more gore or nudity to get the rating up, so that leaves only one thing to do:

    You’ve got to swear like a dogsh*t huffing, c*m-guzzling, c**k-gobbling, d**k-smoking, b*stard-loving, c*nt-licking, a**-gaping, p*ss-drinking, b*tch-a**, c**ksucking, motherf**king f**k f**k f**kity f**k, that’s what you’ve got to do. Because as every c**t-pounding f**k-nugget knows, the key to b*tch-p*ssing f**k-a** maturity is to c**ting well swear like you’re a manly motherf**ker.


    Watching a whole episode is the intellectual equivalent of drinking this.

    Thing is, adults don’t really swear all that much. I mean, some of us do, but bada** motherf**ckers like me are in the minority. That’s because the vast majority of people tend to find it at best, crude, and at worst, immature.

    …Which is exactly how ‘Cybercity Oedo 808’ came off. The first episode features a generically hot-blooded protagonist; your typical poor man’s Snake Plissken. He swears in literally every sentence.

    He sounds like he has brain damage, and doesn’t actually have the first idea about how to string an actual sentence together. The Han Solo/ Clint Eastwood rebellious hero archetype is an aspirational figure; this guy, on the other hand? He’s the sort of man who’d ask his mother is she could f**king well pass him the mother**king salt, and do it c**ting well now, please?

    I’m sure the writers thought it made things much more serious – more adult, but it really, really didn’t. It made a generic action story into comedy gold. My mates and I couldn’t watch it with a straight face, which was probably not the intended effect.

    The thing about maturity, is that it’s, well, mature. That’s a nebulous kind of concept to pin down, but to quote Wikipedia, it’s ‘the ability to respond to the environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive.’

    Now, the key word there is ‘learned’. No matter how much a child might appear mature, they’re not, because they just don’t have the XP yet. They haven’t made those errors than enable them to modify their behaviours into more successful patterns. Instinct tells the immature person to run left; hard experience has taught the mature person that if they go right they’ll do better. Maturity is worldliness. It’s a series of behaviours, ones based on experiential learning and evolved responses.

    Of course, children and the immature don’t see that, because they’re not mature themselves. They make a critical false assumption by equating ‘maturity’ with ‘adulthood’. From there, it’s a simple logical leap to associate maturity not with the ability to make better, more successful choices, but instead with the trappings of adulthood.

    They miss the substance by grasping at the shadow.

    In a textbook case of ‘monkey see, monkey do’, the immature assume that maturity is composed of all the things adults do that they can’t. Too young to drink alcohol? Drink alcohol: that means you’re a grown-up. Too young to have sex? Have sex: that means you’re an adult. Not allowed to swear? Swear all the motherf**king time, just like a big man.

    This is the same line of logic that argues sticking feathers up your a** makes you a chicken.


    Yes, I’m aware the original quote uses the word ‘butt’ instead of a**, but I’m Doing Maturity here.

    I frequently see teenagers smoking, in a desperate effort to look older than their years. They don’t look older than their years. They look young, and needy, and insecure, and desperately sad. Sticking feathers in you’re a** doesn’t make you a chicken, and copying the signifiers of maturity doesn’t make you mature.

    Buying a house doesn’t make you mature; creating a home does. Having children doesn’t make you mature; raising them with unconditional love and equally unconditional boundaries does. Swearing doesn’t make you mature; knowing when and how to deploy your language for maximum impact does.

    Mature Artworks

    In the early 90’s, Marvel set up an imprint called Epic comics. They were the Marvel’s first real attempt at comics for adults, and they were, by and large, terrible. There were some good titles: Pat Mill’s first volume of his character ‘Marshall Law’ is a genuinely superb deconstruction of the 90’s antihero, somehow written before the trope even existed, and some of the ‘Hellraiser’ comics were pretty great.

    The other 98% were just like ‘Cybercity Oedo 808’: excessive carnography, topless women and, of course, more rude words than you could shake a f**k-shaped stick at.

    When Epic tanked, drowned in a sea of its own bad writing, DC stepped into the breach. Led by an astonishing woman named Karen Berger, DC’s Vertigo imprint succeeded far beyond where Epic did, because it did something genuinely revolutionary: it published comics that were actually mature. The most important of these was Neil Gaiman’s ‘Sandman’. Running the gamut of stories, from high fantasy to horror to science fiction and back, it’s an absolute masterpiece of a work, and if you haven’t read it, you should.

    The first arc was a piece of faintly silly fantasy that didn’t quite work, but it did lead directly to issue 8, ‘The Sound of Her Wings’. The titular Sandman, having gone on a seven issue heroic quest to retrieve his lost artefacts of power, finds himself at a bit of a loss, and so spends the day hanging out with his big sister, Death.

    Nothing ‘happens’.



    Oh, people die, but there’s no real narrative to speak of. It’s not that kind of story; it’s about ennui, and the sense that a life without purpose might be no life at all. Over thirty pages, we see that sometimes Death is fair, and sometimes she’s not, but that fairness is, ultimately, an irrelevancy. She’s there for everyone, and the Sandman just watches her go about her day. In doing so, he finds himself revitalised at the thought of resuming his own duties.

    This in one issue. Maybe even moreso than ‘Watchmen’ or ‘The Dark Knight Returns’, ‘Sandman’ was the first really, truly mainstream comic that was ‘mature’, because it left superheroics behind completely, and instead looked at ideas that younger people wouldn’t necessarily be able to grasp. Why not? Because immature people - like children – have very, very small emotional reference pools. Which is as it should be: how can you understand the world when you haven’t lived in it yet?

    Maturity isn’t about the appearance of age and experience – it’s about an accretion of experiences that give a person a broader view of life. Truly mature artwork is mature because it’s emotionally real, not because it’s got tits and violence.

    So how does this all relate to 40K?

    Well, it’s obvious, isn’t it?

    Slaanesh.

    Slaanesh is how.

    It Was Acceptable In The Eighties

    One of the most difficult problems facing any long running narrative is how values change over time. Reed Richards is a kindly patrician in the 1960’s; those same comics read today make him come off like a borderline abusive spouse. Batman is a darkly gothic hero in the 90’s; in our modern era of sickening inequality, the idea of a billionaire beating up poor people becomes a little more difficult to cheer for. An Imperium made up of exclusively white men is pretty much par for the course in the 80’s, but as we progress through the second decade of the 21st century, it looks more and more backwards.

    And then we come to Slaanesh.

    Dear sweet merciful Zeus, what a can of worms Slaanesh is.


    Pictured: maturity!

    I mean, it’s easy to see where Slaanesh comes from, especially as Age of Sigmar has completed Warhammer’s journey to ‘Generic Eighties Heavy Metal Album Art: The Game’.

    As every model gets so much more muscular, so much buffer, so much more tanned, so much more steeped in the GLORY OF CARNAGE all you need to do is look at the album art for bands like Manowar to see what’s going on.


    Seriously, just Google ‘Manowar Album Art’; you will not be disappointed.

    The naysayers will probably rant about how AoS is the root of this, but that’s bollocks. ‘Warhammer’ has always been rooted in that very specific heavy metal counterculture of torn denim waistcoats, greasy mullets, bum fluff moustaches and band patches that infested the UK in the eighties. Cheesy album art was always a huge part of that culture, and so many of the aesthetic choices have pollinated the look of both Warhammer and 40K.

    And what do heavy metal bands like more than muscled wrestlers wielding swords?


    Subtle metaphor. They like subtle metaphor…

    So obviously, when the nascent Ruinous Powers are being invented, they each tap into a different heavy metal idea. Khorne is every album cover of a generic red demon; Nurgle taps into people like ‘Cannibal Corpse’, what with their addiction to zombie imagery and rotting stuff; Tzeentch is the remnants of 60’s and 70’s psychedelia, where bands experimented with magickal imagery and Slaanesh… Slaneesh is the god of nekkid chicks. Because 90% of getting into a band is the nekkid chicks.


    The other 10% is cocaine.

    Thing is, a ‘god of pleasure’ sounds fine and all, but it’s actually a very difficult thing to pull off (no pun intended). In-universe, the Chaos gods are inherently corrupting, and when you mix that with ‘pleasure’ what happens is you get all kinds of Unfortunate Implications. If the god of pleasure is a corrupting power, then any pleasure is potentially corrupting. Sex becomes, by its nature, morally dangerous… which is only a short hop, skip and jump to things like [url=https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/]slut-shaming[/url], homophobia, transphobia… And that’s before we even get to ideas like drugs, which, again, is a very dangerous area to look at. Issues relating to addiction require huge nuance, because these are real-world issues that have real-world consequences.

    Now, I’m not going to get caught up in a discussion of drugs or sex here; the only point I’m making is that these are by nature, sensitive issues: they’re ones that require maturity to discuss, confront, or represent successfully… Which is why I think that maybe they’re ones that are perhaps not best explored through the medium of tabletop wargaming.

    For me, wargaming is a fun little game of plastic soldiers. I roll dice, I make pew pew noises, I smile with my friends as we salute the Emperor.

    Ideas regarding the pursuits of dangerous pleasures are absolutely worth discussing, well worth telling stories about… But those stories require incredible maturity to avoid selling people’s humanity short, and Warhammer 40,000 isn’t really the place for that.

    Not to mention, it’s a tabletop wargame that by financial necessity, [url=http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/08/editorial-games-workshop-make-games-for-kids.html]needs to be aimed at children[/url] as well as adults. A faction where you can legitimately joke about how they main pure heroin into the bulbous veins of a noise marine’s leathebound nine-inches really isn’t appropriate in a game that has always marketed itself at the young. Certainly not enough to justify their inclusion, which is why I think it makes sense to slowly pull the limelight from Slaanesh.

    Not to mention the deeply regressive imagery of ‘seductive Daemonettes’. And that’s before we even mention the clear homophobic/horribly transphobic stuff that’s going on there as well. Ultimately, a lot of Slaanesh’s stuff, while potentially cool, is clearly going to alienate a lot of potential customers, and I’m not just talking about women here. Plenty of guys I know scoff at GW because of the Daemonette nonsense.

    So I can see why GW is scaling back Slaanesh where possibly. Exactly like the excessive swearing in ‘Cybercity Oedo 808’, it fails because it fundamentally misunderstands what maturity is. Even taken on its own 'trying to be disturbing' terms, Slaanesh isn't sexy, or seductive, or – most importantly – ‘mature’ at all. What Slaanesh is? Is a collection of embarrassing ideas about sex and sexuality written by a person who’s never experienced any flavour of ice-cream other than vanilla, and who isn’t really interested in understanding the ideas they’re discussing, just describing some weird personal fantasy.


    For when your Ruinous Power doesn’t make love; it f**ks.

    Actual Maturity

    Maturity is the ability to respond to the environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive. The outdated ideas about sex and sexuality – and they are outdated – that Slaanesh represents are simply not appropriate for the game any more. They’re not appropriate for younger gamers; they’re insulting to women, to trans and intersex people, as well as to any man whose sexuality extends beyond five quick pumps whilst thinking of England. The mature response would be to acknowledge this, and avoid the instinct to avoid change. Change terrifies people, especially members of the geek community, who loathe retcons with a passion that could eclipse suns.


    If they want to run for cover they could always hide here, in [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/secondhand-bookstore-book-fort-fifty-shades-of-grey_us_56f42ff1e4b0c3ef52184bee]Slaanesh’s Fortress Of Unbridled Lust[/url].

    But, in my opinion, Slaanesh shouldn’t be part of things as they are. So how could we deal with this?

    Well, contrary to what you might think, I don’t actually believe we should Squat it. For better or worse, Slaanesh is a longstanding part of things, and it’s would be simply unfair to those gamers who’ve got Slaanesh armies. As well as this, 40K isn’t just a wargame any more; Fantasy Flight Games’ excellent lines of tabletop RPGs enable the discussion of some very mature themes, especially in more investigation-based games like ‘Dark Heresy’. A Slaanesh cult could be an intriguing way for an appropriately mature group of gamers to look at all kinds of ideas to do with the aforementioned sex, sexuality and other adult issues.

    So what to do? Well, in my opinion, the best solution would be to ‘retire’ Slaanesh as a GW-produced faction and make the army Forge World’s property. If you’ve not read any of FW’s books, I can attest that they have demonstrated time and again that they can do nuance. Not to mention, FW’s models are NOT targeted at children, but explicitly as adult collectors, meaning it’s possible to completely ignore that issue of inappropriateness. GW as a company can completely take advantage of this, having its cake and eating it, and they should. Obviously, this does nothing to overcome the inherent problems of sexist models, or the deeply embedded homophobic and transphobic imagery, but that’s something which can be looked at over time in Black Library books, Forge World supplements, and FFG RPG supplements.

    Slaanesh has already been replaced by the Horned Rat in AoS, which clearly shows it can be done in 40K too. To be honest, this is the ideal opportunity to do something exciting and new for Chaos players, giving them a whole new Chaos power to deal with. They could bring back Malal, or they could choose something else to fill the gap more naturally. Either way, it would be a step towards turning 40K into an actual, truly mature environment, and that can only be a good thing.
    Last edited by YorkNecromancer; 06-05-2016 at 08:08 AM.
    AUT TACE AUT LOQUERE MELIORA SILENTIO

  2. #2
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    I think Slaanesh's biggest issue as they are represented compared to the other gods is they're backwards. What I mean is that Nurgle, god of entropy and decay is represented by decaying dudes; Khorne by the embodiment of fighting, demons of pure rage and bloodshed; and Tzeentch by impossible, unknowable fractal blobs.

    Slaanesh is represented by things people are attracted to - albeit monstrous ones, but it's not the same mechanic.

    It's like every rendition of the seven sins by a mediocre whiteboy artist - wrath with be a big dude in spiky armour, gluttony a morbidly obese person and all that, while lust while be a sexy lady. It's like they're all represent the perceived pinnacle of that sin until it comes to the one where you can objectify a woman. It's showing an object of lust, not someone consumed by lust. Or rather the fantasy that a sexy woman is consumed by lust and thus ****ing everything because misogyny.

    So to me Slaanesh feels waaaaaay too much like that. If we were following the same template Tzeentch would be guys writing clickbait articles (this sorcerer leant 9 new hexes in 9 weeks - you won't believe how!), Khorne would be military recruiters/making movies like American Sniper, and Nurgle would be encouraging you to have your own compost heap.



    (admittedly a legion of Costa's would be rather terrifying)

    Slaanesh isn't the representation of ultimate excess, they're the representation enticement to excess, which is a different kettle of fish.

  3. #3
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    Personally I think Slaanesh is a fantastic god, and provides a lot of scope for commentary of social attitudes, the nature of man etc. desires of all kinds twisted to something new and dangerous. excess taking its' toll on people and the world. but as Gott says, the models are basically just one aspect of excess and a lot more one dimensional than the faction should be. it would be good to see the models and background cover more than just lust. the slaanesh dude with all the mirrors is at least slightly more complex, Lucius and the Emperor's Children obsessed with martial pride, and then sensation, so the possibility is there. it just needs to be expanded. certain aspects of the seven deadly sins would be a good place to start really, like gluttony and pride.
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    Yes I should clarify that I was talking about the demons and portrayal of demon worlds and such only - the Chaos Marines tend to be more what the demons should be to stay consistent with the other gods.

  5. #5

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    Couple of challenges.

    First up, Slaanesh isn't going anywhere. Front seat, back seat - it's still there in AoS, just kidnapped by Tyrion and Malerion/Malekith. Suffice to say that's probably gonna work about as well as you might expect.

    Slaaneshi devotees in AoS have also moved beyond the 'bewbs and winkles' in the background. Currently, they're seeking out their missing God, and all have their own notions on how to find him. For some it's a literal search - Slaanesh has to be somewhere after all. For others, it's a spiritual journey, that Slaanesh might be found through acts of excess and devotion. There's even a transgendered character get in one of the 'Call of Chaos' short stories. Armour is described, as is their weapon - but not the character. The whole gender thing is written really well

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless
    As was her way, she - and though verbal language lacked the nuance to describe, much less define her gender, of late she felt like being a she - though long and carefully before answering them
    A refreshingly mature look at it, and to be fair, somewhat unexpected in GW fiction.

    But where does the problem with Slaaneshi portrayal stem from? I'd say it's us, the gamers. We're the one who associate hedonism and excess with willies and knockers. And that's barely covering Slaanesh as you know. Could be a glutton, an epicurean, a warrior seeking martial perfection, an artist akin to Pygmallion. Indeed, anything done to excess, whether in Slaanesh's name or no goes to feed Slaanesh. When Khârn throws a totally wobbler and massacres an entire hive single handed? Slaanesh gets a morsel. When Dr Festus obsesses over a new brew? Slaanesh gets a morsel.

    That's why Slaanesh is feared by its fellow Gods - in time, it's inevitable that Slaanesh will grow to be the most powerful of the pantheon.

    Bloody good point about the Meta Album Art though
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    For others, it's a spiritual journey, that Slaanesh might be found through acts of excess and devotion. There's even a transgendered character get in one of the 'Call of Chaos' short stories. Armour is described, as is their weapon - but not the character. The whole gender thing is written really well


    A refreshingly mature look at it, and to be fair, somewhat unexpected in GW fiction.
    I really fail to see what being transgender has to do with Slaanesh tho. Like, at all.

    But where does the problem with Slaaneshi portrayal stem from? I'd say it's us, the gamers. We're the one who associate hedonism and excess with willies and knockers.
    Creators still created it like that. I mean there is a degree of responsibility in accepting the status quo, but ultimately if we're criticising how an intellectual property portrays something it's the ones who create said property who are creating the problem. They're the ones selling hedonism as "willies and knockers" for the last two and a half decades.

  7. #7

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    I guess the transgender thing within Slaaneshi cults to expand the number of possible experiences - so not at all like real life. Trouble is Slaanesh has previously been portrayed as 'kinky'. Just my ha'penny though, not looking to pick and argument

    The other bit? Way back there was lots of different takes. They weren't all waif bodies and EE cup norks. Here's some examples of what I'm on about.





    There's another one I can't find right now, where the Cultists are obese, but my Googlefu is weak today.

    Now, to be fair, Slaanesh is yet to get its AoS makeover, so it's entirely possible the interesting new take will be abandoned yet - but I hope not.
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  8. #8

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    I quite liked some of the representations of Slaanesh in Fulgrim. It wasn't just *ss 'n' t*tties. It was obsession with your art to the point of insanity. It was tearing apart social boundaries - and other people - in a cascade of madness that the perpetrator saw as being avant garde. It was the pushing of the human desire to experience new, exciting things to the point of being a destructive practice, both to self and to others, and most importantly to the collective whole. I think the concept of even something as simple as enhancing warriors to feel joy in combat, or interpret pain signals as pleasure, is an interesting development that on the face of it, seems almost likely. (Maybe not pleasure, but the idea of augmenting warriors to feel no pain is common, and well, how many authors have written about the thrill of combat?) It kinda goes into how that could be destructive, how the relentless perfectionism of the Emperor's Children drives them to push higher-and-higher, and with nowhere to go up, they scattered all over the place in their pursuits of perfection.

    Slaanesh could be a very interesting God, and their devotees would be very interesting themselves. Sadly the drug/sex analogy is an easy shorthand, rather than really looking at it as the pushing of the boundaries of human experience. All humans desire, and all humans enjoy new experiences of some sort or another. Like Khorne does to Wrath, Slaanesh is the extreme of this simple emotion.

    But hey, society does this anyway. If it comes across any experience it doesn't understand, it automatically assumes it's sexual and deviant. ASMR, an as-yet not fully understood phenomenon? Totally sexual, says society, despite the people who experience ASMR being adamant that it isn't. Heck, stuff like furries, bronies, etc have minorities that do - sadly and horrifyingly - sexualise their particular...obsessions, but the majority don't. Yet it's easier for society to just say, "it's all sexual, they're just deviant."

    So even if you put the effort into Slaanesh to really explore the depths of human experience and the spiralling madness as one explores the very edge of what the human body and mind can experience, before Slaanesh empowers you to exceed it, you'd still have people just going, "yeah, it's just sexual and weird."
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    an epicurean
    no no no. hedonism, not epicureanism, they are different things
    Twelve monkeys, eleven hats. One monkey is sad.

  10. #10

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    FFS.

    Hmm. Wonder if I could convert up a Gluttony Warband?
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