What ever happened to the Primarchs

[StraightSilver]

Going back to the 2 missing Primarchs there is also a subtle hint as to what happened to their Legions in one of the more recent Heresy novels, First Heretic I think.

We know, or rather it is suggested that at least one of the missing Primarchs in some way deviated from the norm and rebelled against or displeased the Emperor in some way.

The Primarchs were erased from history, but what about their Legions of Astartes?

It is hinted that they were absorbed into the ranks of the Ultramarines, which is why the 13th Legion is by far the largest.

Could this be why Guilliman was so adamant they follow his Codex Astartes to the letter, and why they stamp out any free thinking or deviation from Guiiliman's teachings?

Is there possibly going to be a darker side of the Ultramarines revealed?

And is it a coincidence that the Ultramarines are the 13th Legion?

Obviously pure speculation on my part, but they have been hinting a bit towards something along these lines.

Also the original Legiones Astartes were based on the 28 Roman Legions. 3 of these Legions were famously lost without trace whilst on campaign in Germania, and very little information about what happened to them was recorded.

However it was then discovered that all 3 Legions had been massacred, mainly due to the incompetence of the General leading them, and apparently all 3 Legions were erased from Imperial Roman records.

Their remains were never found.

Games Workshop always said that the 2 missing Primarchs were in some way representative of the 3 missing Legions, and as they were never found, then they would never reveal what happened to the 2 missing Primarchs.

However Archeologists are thought to have discovered the remains of one of the missing Legions about a year ago, so you never know.....

[FastEd]

I didn't know about the correspondence to the missing Roman legions, nor that of the three were missing for that matter.

It would be interesting to see what happened to the two, especially to see how it develops as more potential information on the possibly found missing legion is discovered.

[StraightSilver]

Well the missing Legions were wiped out (allegedly) in the Battle of the Teutoborg Forest, although only a few bones were found many years later.

The missing Legions were the Legions of Varus, I have copied some text from an article about it here:

"The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD was one of the most comprehensive and crushing defeats the Romans ever suffered – it effectively ended Roman expansion into northern Europe. Publius Quinctilius Varus was the ill-fated general whose three legions (out of Rome’s 28 legions total) were ambushed en route to winter camp by a unification of Germanic tribes under the prince Arminius. All three – the XVII, XVIII and XIX, numbering more than 15,000 men total – subsequently disappeared from the face of history completely. It would be six years before their fate was learned.

Varus was a foolish general. Unsuspecting of Arminius – whom he trusted as an ally – he allowed his forces to be caught strung-out and unprepared along a narrow forest road. The few survivors of the ensuing bloodbath were either ritually sacrificed on stone altars, crucified on sacred oak trees or burned alive in wicker cages. Varus himself opted to commit suicide rather than face capture.

It’s said that it the Emperor, Augustus, only learned of the defeat when he was forwarded Varus’s severed head by Morboduus, the King of Bohemia, after Arminius had presented it to him in a bid to show off. The full extent of the gruesome fate met out upon Varus’s force was only discovered in 15 AD, when the general Germanicus staged the final, brief Roman crossing of the Rhine, and found piles of bones scattered around the forest. The legion numbers XVII, XVIII and XIX remained erased forever from the records, and Rome never again fielded more than 25 legions."

There is another article here:

[url]http://heritage-key.com/blogs/bija-knowles/day-history-romes-defeat-battle-teutoburg-forest[/url]

If GW really were intending to stick to this piece of history then the two missing Primarchs could well be Varus and Arminius.

The idea that Arminius was born in Germania, raised in Rome but stayed loyal to Germania makes me wonder if one the Primarchs didn't want to leave the world he was raised on? Or was unhappy with his homeworld reintegrating with the Imperium?

And could Varus have simply been duped by Arminius if they were Primarchs? Maybe Primarch Arminius led Primarch Varus into a trap, which led to him being slain, and then the Emperor sent Russ to destroy Arminius?

Again pure speculation, but when I worked for GW many, many yaesr ago they always used to insist that they used real historical events to base a lot of the earlier fluff on, so who knows?

[Cryl]

There's a strong implication from Leman Russ himself that the wolves were used to destroy one of the missing legions (at least that's the way I read it).

I also think that we'll see the less than noble side of the Ultramarines - Gulliman came across as utterly cold and calculating (as befits a master logistician I suppose) at the start of Last Heretic, I'd like to see that explored. Personally I think they were utterly loyal to the Emperor but since he was a xenophobic tyrant that's not necessarily a good thing!

[plawolf]

I also remember a short conversation between Dorn and Malcandor in Nemisis (iirc) where Dorn raised the possibility of almost bring back the lost Legions, but Malcandor killed that line of thought by stating that they were 'lost' to the Imperium.

That would suggest that those Legions were not totally destroyed or already represented in the Smurfs, well not entirely.

I also wonder how well the marines of a Legion would accept being absorbed into the Smurfs if Russ just offed their Primarch.

It would seem to fit better if the Wolves were unleashed on another Legion, but instead of destroying it completely, they might have launched a 'decapitation' attack and wiped out the errant Primarch's personal guard/complement (after all, it is rare for a Legion to be at their Primarch's side in its entirety all the time), and probably took that Primarch prisoner instead of merely killing him.

That would make his remaining marines more ready and willing to accept being absorbed into another legion. If Russ had killed their Primarch, the remaining marines would much more likely turn renegade and try to avenge their lost father.

The other Legion could have been banished or sent of some eternal crusade of penance or vigil, and so might have been able to be called back, and that was what Dorn was hinting at.

Or it really could be that Russ and his wolves were unleashed to wipe out another Legion, while the other lost Legion had its Primarch imprisoned and his men absorbed into the Smurfs, and Dorn was just suggesting they let the errant Primarch out of the 'tower' and help with the defense. A Primarch, even without his Legion, is still a monstrously powerful asset.

[Artein]

I also remember a short conversation between Dorn and Malcandor in Nemisis (iirc) where Dorn raised the possibility of almost bring back the lost Legions, but Malcandor killed that line of thought by stating that they were 'lost' to the Imperium.

That was in The Lightning Tower audiobook.

[Daemonette666]

So we could have a situatoin where there are the Chaos Daemon Princes - Perturabo, Lorgar, Angron, Magnus the Red, Mortarian and Fulgrim (still a Daemon Primarch) and the 2 Alpha Legion Primarchs (because they are not confirmed dead at all - makes them end of time in my book)

VERSES

Lemun Russ, Corax, Jaghati Khan, Lion El' Johnson, and possibly Vulkan.

Imperial have confirmed dead - Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, and Gulliman while Chaos has only Night Haunter and Horus as confirmed dead.

Go CHAOS YAAAY.

[Daemonette666]

Going back to the 2 missing Primarchs there is also a subtle hint as to what happened to their Legions in one of the more recent Heresy novels, First Heretic I think.

We know, or rather it is suggested that at least one of the missing Primarchs in some way deviated from the norm and rebelled against or displeased the Emperor in some way.

The Primarchs were erased from history, but what about their Legions of Astartes?

It is hinted that they were absorbed into the ranks of the Ultramarines, which is why the 13th Legion is by far the largest.

Could this be why Guilliman was so adamant they follow his Codex Astartes to the letter, and why they stamp out any free thinking or deviation from Guiiliman's teachings?

Is there possibly going to be a darker side of the Ultramarines revealed?

And is it a coincidence that the Ultramarines are the 13th Legion?

Obviously pure speculation on my part, but they have been hinting a bit towards something along these lines.

Also the original Legiones Astartes were based on the 28 Roman Legions. 3 of these Legions were famously lost without trace whilst on campaign in Germania, and very little information about what happened to them was recorded.

However it was then discovered that all 3 Legions had been massacred, mainly due to the incompetence of the General leading them, and apparently all 3 Legions were erased from Imperial Roman records.

Their remains were never found.

Games Workshop always said that the 2 missing Primarchs were in some way representative of the 3 missing Legions, and as they were never found, then they would never reveal what happened to the 2 missing Primarchs.

However Archeologists are thought to have discovered the remains of one of the missing Legions about a year ago, so you never know.....

I mentioned thiss in another thread. The Mechanicus have them in stasus pods. One of their facilities was raided by Chaos Space Marines withthe assistance of a recently sorrupted Adeptus Mechanicus big wig, and they proceeded to collect the bodies and one of the CSM champions was eating the geneseed directly from the bodies in stasus. It was on a moon facility. I think it was an Iron Warriors novel. It has been a long time since I read it.

[Tynskel]

So we could have a situatoin where there are the Chaos Daemon Princes - Perturabo, Lorgar, Angron, Magnus the Red, Mortarian and Fulgrim (still a Daemon Primarch) and the 2 Alpha Legion Primarchs (because they are not confirmed dead at all - makes them end of time in my book)

VERSES

Lemun Russ, Corax, Jaghati Khan, Lion El' Johnson, and possibly Vulkan.

Imperial have confirmed dead - Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, and Gulliman while Chaos has only Night Haunter and Horus as confirmed dead.

Go CHAOS YAAAY.

I don't remember Rogal Dorn being dead--- he went into the warp to chase down foes. Gulliman is in statis, and sloooowly healing. The Lion is likewise in stasis. Vulkan left, as far as I can tell, and that's Vulkan He'Stan's quest is to bring him back.

[AirHorse]

Rogal Dorn died when a ship he boarded blew up, theyve got his hand or something as a relic dont they?