Codex trumps rulebook....when?

[Starion]

I see the phrase "Codex over Rulebook" (CoR from here) used a lot. Here (my thread about Unique SM chars, and the DH force weapons come to mind), in store, etc.

Can anyone nail down exactly WHEN CoR works? I can see two references to it in the MRB - pg 74, where it specifically references the USRs, and pg 289 - start of the Reference section, where it specfies CoR only in discrepancies between that section and the codex.

Other than those two points, I can't see anywhere that CoR works. So, to call the two threads above into question:
Unique SM characters - There is a ruling for uniqueness in MRB. This appears unaffected by CoR, ergo JWolf's reply stands - A named char is unique and may only be taken once, regardless of typos.

DH Force weapons - As I can't seen anywhere in the CCW types section any reference to codices, the rulebook stands. So a DH force weapon follows the rules for force weapons on pg 50.

With regards to saying when it should occur, I believe a timeline should be used - so the reference section at the back 'should' be used over and codices prior to the 5th ed release, as surely it was designed to update prior codices to the 5th ed level, before the newer codices then take precedence...

[Dosadi]

I agree with you on this Starion. But in my experience people are going to use CoR only when it suits them. I’ve had people tell me that their DH force weapons can “slay outright” and then turn around in the same game and claim their storm shields give them a 3++ save. I agree that GW should make some sort of ruling on these older rules as we are in a position where there are army lists from two editions ago that are quite popular being used.
For me, I’ve always felt that the main rulebook should trump everything else in terms of weapon profiles and USRs. Most of us will apply common sense to these situations and realize what is intended. Some will take whatever advantage they can twist out of the rules. Those are people I usually only ever play once.


Dosadi

[Dezartfox]

Unless an errata/faq says so then you use the codex rules first, so for the DH force weapon example, you use that before you look at the rule book. Newer codices say "refer to pg x in the rulebook" for things like that. You either use one or the other, not a mix. So I don't claim my stormshield have a 3+ save as that's not what the rules say in my codex

[Nabterayl]

I think Starion's question is where, if anywhere, it's stated that the codex trumps the rulebook all the time. Most players (at least all the ones that I know) play that way*, and it seems to be a time-honored principle of the game. But he's right to ask the question. Where does it actually say that? Can anybody actually cite the language?

* Actually most players I know play "codex trumps the rulebook but I'll ask my opponents for exceptions that make sense to all parties involved," which I suspect describes a goodly portion of the non-tournament scene, but everybody I know has somewhere gotten the idea that the codex trumps the rulebook.

EDIT:

the reference section at the back 'should' be used over and codices prior to the 5th ed release, as surely it was designed to update prior codices to the 5th ed level, before the newer codices then take precedence...

That I can disagree with based on the rulebook itself. As it says under "Reference" on the lead-in page to that section, "in the event of any contradiction between this section and any of the individual codexes, the codexes always take precedence." So even in the case of codices that predate the current edition rulebook, the codex trumps the reference section.

[Tarion]

I don't really see what the alternative is, to be honest. The rules are set up based on the idea that the codex modifies the original rules. Codex > Rulebook

If rulebook > codex, then the IG tanks can't take advantage of the Lumbering Behemoth rule, as the rulebook clearly outlines how moving vehicles shoot.

I do agree that GW should give a ruling one way or the other on a lot of stuff (GKs, for example. Bad Storm Shields, bad Assault Cannons, good Force weapons? Joy )

[Dan-e]

Codex > BRB , or MRB as you put it, is constant and is the word of the Holy Emperor

if your Codex tells you to do it like X, and the rulebook talks about doing it like Y, then you do X, good or bad.

Some armies benefit from this, others are hurt. This way you don't have to have as many books or little slips of paper in your books covering erratas. Nor do they have to print off a list of every change to ever thing that effects ever Codex.

So Grey Knights do force weapons different then the Universal rules for force weapons. Thats what makes then special and different, be glad some times.

As far as someone claiming that a DH gets the newest Storm Shield rules is horse wash as far as i know as those aren't in the MRB and even if they were, Codex > MRB. Thats a case of someone picking and choosing rules from a codex and in my book thats cheating.

More cases of this being a good thing is Eldar Pathfinders, they have better Stealth and Better Sniper weapons, Necron lords on destoryer body get a increase to toughness that helps against Instant Death from double strength weapons.

[Starion]

I think Starion's question is where, if anywhere, it's stated that the codex trumps the rulebook all the time.

Yup, that about sums up the main question. I can only find the two cited examples in the rulebook which specify which parts they refer to.
But, as with the DH/FW example, the 5th ed rules for FWs are neither in the USR section, nor the Reference section (that covers only unit and ranged weapon stats). And as the CCW section mentions nowhere CoR, then surely rulebook wins.

As another example: Assault cannon for Space Wolves. It's listed as a Term. Wolf Guard heavy weapon, in the unit entry. It doesn't appear in the armoury anywhere (so not even referencing C:SM), an appears in the summary of C:SW as it's 3rd ed form: S6, Ap4, Hv3 *, where the * says see the MRB for further rules (it jammed on a triple 1, iirc). As the weapons section of the 5th ed MRB carries no rules for it, does that mean I need to take my 3rd ed MRB to play that 1 weapon? The 5th ed Reference section puts Wolves in along side other Marines, and gives all Marines the one weapons list, where the AC now has it's 4th ed stats (same as 5th ed)

That I can disagree with based on the rulebook itself. As it says under "Reference" on the lead-in page to that section, "in the event of any contradiction between this section and any of the individual codexes, the codexes always take precedence." So even in the case of codices that predate the current edition rulebook, the codex trumps the reference section.

I wasn't saying that's how it must be played, more my opinion of how it should be played (hence the 's around 'should'). Otherwise what was the point of adding that section, along with a few minor updates to weapon types (ie, DE Blasters + Dark Lances now have "Lance" as part of their type - yes, I know they had that rule anyway, but now it has a name, they put it in to bring it in line with 5th ed), if they then say essentially "Go back to what the codex from 2 editions ago says"

[The Green Git]

Codex > BRB , or MRB as you put it, is constant and is the word of the Holy Emperor

if your Codex tells you to do it like X, and the rulebook talks about doing it like Y, then you do X, good or bad.

Unless you are an Ork with Ld 20 due to Mob Rule... then you are at Ld 10. Please explain how Codex trumps Rulebook here?

[BuFFo]

This is a common sense issue hobbyists need.

If you do not have Codex overrides MRB, then you essentially cannot play the game. It just won't work.

[Tarion]

Page 62 of the rulebook, Smoke Launchers (Yes, its a bit of an odd place to take it from, but its the one I found first )

"It is worth pointing out that some armies might use different versions of smoke launchers, which have slightly different rules. As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence"

So, the big book acknowledges that in the example of Smoke Launchers, the codex > rulebook, as normal.