Chaos Marines: Where do they fit?

[eagleboy7259]

I was in the game store the other night for game night and after we had finished up our game me and my opponent got to talking. I'm new to the store and pretty new to 5th edition, having only started collecting again back at xmas time. Let's just say I got my butt whooped. Anyway the guy offers me a rematch next week saying he'll bring his Chaos Marines and I'll probably whoop his but next time. I ask him what he means and we talk for a bit and he says look you'll what I mean.

Woah did I miss something

Idk when I started playing in 3rd ed it was right before the previous CSM book came out and after that they were the be all, end all army to beat. I know they got nerfed in their current book but are they really that bad? I've seen it both ways in the forums from people saying they are the among the worst armies in the game to others still saying they are one of the most dangerous books out there. I was wondering what people thought?

Against them: Codex Chaos Marines was written during the dark days of Jervis-Hammer, meaning that everything in the book is overpriced compared to its loyalist counterpart. Being already expensive points wise means they will bring in some of the lowest body counts in the game. They have no decent fast attack selection, save the bikes who are considerably overpriced for their mediocre stat raise. They have no psychic defense to speak of leaving them vulnerable. Most of the units in the book aren't worth fielding because many have similar roles to other units such as bezerkers and possessed.

For them: C'mon its CSM! They're the elite of the elite right? They have some of the nastiest HQ, Troops, and Heavy Support selections in the game in the form of Demon Princes, Plague Marines, Khrone Bezerkers, Obliterators, and Defilers. Demons are still a nasty bomb that allow you to tie up units on a whim and claim objectives late in the game. Lash and Warptime are among the nastiest psychic powers in the game.

So which is right?

[TheStrategist]

Well, just as a thought, is the amount of people who play 'Chaos' armies, using other codexi. Goatboy, one guy in my local store. Heck, even I'm toying around with the idea of using the BA codex to represent Night Lords...

Sure, the CSM codex isn't the worst, but it's only got several builds that are truly competitive, and even those have been seen and seen again to the point where they aren't surprising the opponent. And that's not even taking the fluff into perspective. Can anyone imagine Slaanesh Daemon Princes bunching up entire squads for Khornate Demolishers, while Plague Marines and Tzeentch Daemons hold ground/assault the enemy in a short story? A little over the top, but I'm sure the point is clear.

My humble two pennies.

[Mizzrym]

Well as a primarily CSM player(though I just took the dive into DE) I think that they're both wrong. I play a Death Guard army, and while it's certainly not overpowered, its not some chump b***h either. Sure we've got some inherent weaknesses (read: psy defense and no FA worth taking) but my track record vs current guard is about 50/50 and that's saying something, because guard are really good right now. Personally I started in 5th ed, but have the older codeci on my computer, and while i long for some of the things we used to have, I'm happy with what we've got. Honestly the only things loyalists have that we don't that i would kill for are HK missiles and land speeders, if we had those it'd be crazy. Now don't get me wrong there are some super weak but fun builds (1k sons, and to a lesser extent emperor's children) but it's not always about having a face beating army. I have a small EC warband with a crapton of converted noise marines that I pull out for smaller games, they're not that good but who can say no to hot pink chaos marines blasting sonic death all over their foes?

[Sir Biscuit]

Chaos isn't bad because their individual units are bad, they're bad because nothing in the army has any synergy with anything else.

First, let's take a look at the units in the codex:
HQs:
Abbadon: Powerful, killy, durable, and extremely expensive. Pass.
Fabius Bile: Cool character, cool upgrade option, but points spent on him and his upgrades quickly gets too expensive. Pass.
Huron Blackheart: Overpriced okay melee guy. Pass.
Typhus: Cool character, great in melee until he meets a powerfist and goes splat. Pass.
Kharn the Betrayer: Awesome in melee, tends to go splat but you can run him with a squad and he can actually be pretty survivable. Also, shockingly, reasonably priced. Not an OMGAWESOME HQ, but he's pretty good.
Ahriman: Pay a huge cost for... some crappy powers and a crappy melee guy. Pass. Worst option.
Lucius the Eternal: Neat abilities, and soooo, soooooooo close to being good in melee. Unforgivably, he forgot his blissgiver and uses a powersword instead. Pass!
Daemon Prince: expensive, kinda fragile, but the best HQ option.
Chaos Lord: Not worth it. After upgrades, is as expensive as a loyalist captain but not as good. Daemon weapons are an expensive joke.
Chaos Sorcerer: 10 points less expensive than a Daemon prince... pass.

Elites:
Chosen Chaos Space Marines: Pay a price premium, and very expensive to outfit, and they don't score. You get infiltrate in exchange, and some pricey options. Pass.
Chaos Terminators: Kinda cool, if run right. The key is to keep them cheap. Still, they don't really have an effective delivery system as Chaos Land Raiders are not very good, and they don't have the invuln save to survive anything but the safest of deep strikes. A maybe.
Possessed: Overpriced and random. Not a good combination for a unit if it wants to be in serious lists. Pass.
Chaos Dreadnought: Don't be fooled, equipping it with ranged weaponry is a good way to get your own units shot up. Melee ones are... okay, but still not great as they are unreliable. Good in an all-melee army, and not much else.

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines: Cheap at first glance, less so after upgrades. They need a mark, non-fearless CSM are... lulz. To get a sarge you have to pay a hefty premium, and your weapons are more expensive to boot. Especially bad when compared to cult troops. Pass, one squad can be good for holding the home objective.
Plague Marines: They never die. Plauge marines are more resistant to small arms fire than terminators, and you can pack 2x melta in each squad. Still, expensive so you won't have a ton of them and they die to heavier weapons like any other marines. A good option. Probably the best in the codex.
Noise Marines: Much too expensive for what they deliver. Better to invest in different kinds of ranged support.
Khorne Berserkers: So cool, and so close to being really good. If they could take melta, they would be awesome. As it is, they can't really bust tanks, so they're only mediocre. Unfortunately, nothing else in the codex is great at busting transports at range either, so they're not nearly as good as they first appear.
Thousand Sons: Overpriced, and their effectiveness drops off dramatically when they aren't fighting against MEQs. Pass.

Fast Attack:
Chaos Bikers: Cool, but extremely expensive. I have trouble seeing them in a lot of builds, though some people swear by them. Still, I just cant get over that more-expensive-than-terminators price tag. Pass.
Raptors: Do what Khorne berserkers do, worse, for one point less. Good suicide melta deliver system, I suppose, but not much beyond that. Pass.
Chaos Spawn: AHAHAHApass.

Heavy Support:
Havocs: Jaw-droppingly... expensive. Like, daaaaaaaamn expensive. Pass.
Obliterators: Cool, effective, expensive, and fragile. They're the only reasonable ranged support you've got, unfortunitly. They get taken, even though they aren't terribly good.
Chaos Predator: The loyalist one is good because its cheap. This one is expensive. Pass.
Vindicator: It's a vindi. You pay ten points more than the loyalist one for the same thing. Vindi's are kinda meh tanks, but they're not bad, per say. Can be useful.
Defiler: Only ever equip it with more arms, as when it fores the battle cannon it can't fire any other guns. Silly, I know. But not a terrible choice for a melee army.
Land Raider: You only get the one variant no one likes and you don't get PotMS or the Multi-Melta option. At least you save 20 points? Nope, not good. Pass.

Summoned Daemons:
Greater Daemon: Cool. I like this guys, but he's kinda unreliable and you lose a valuable sergeant when he comes in. Maybe? I like him.
Lessor Daemons: Don't fool yourself, these guys are for summoning to sit and claim objectives, not to actually fight things. They're too fragile to take anything in melee but weak troops. Some small squads are nice for objective grabbing.

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So, out of that whole big codex, what units are worth taking?
Kharn
Daemon Prince
Maybe Termis
Maybe Dreadnoughts
Plague Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Obliterators
Vindicators
Defilers
Lessor Daemons

That's not a very impressive list.

Well, at least we're doing well in the melee department. In fact, 7 of the 10 units worth using in the army are melee units.

Uh oh. We don't need redundancy in good melee units. What we need is the ability to bust transports, be mobile, be flexible and disrupt the opponents battle plan. This is the first area where Chaos armies run into trouble: they are necessarily melee-focused, because most of their good units are melee units.

That's really bad, because your opponent also knows that. He knows that you will have to come to him, because Chaos can't outshoot any other army in the game. Even Orks handily outshoot Chaos. That means from turn one, your battle plan will be no surprise to the enemy. For gods sake, Chaos doesn't even have any decent deep strikers or outflankers. It's a very monotactical army.

And even then, it gets worse. I mentioned it at the top, none of the units have synergy with each other. For instance, a marine squad, a mortis dread and a MM/HF land speeder working together have a myriad of tactical options, and can support each other in a variety of ways. Together, they make a very flexible formation that denies mobility, controls a segment of the board, and can put out killing power at range and in melee. Chaos has none of that. The closest they get is "obliterators pop transports, berserkers assault". Nothing in the army can help the units around them and make them better.

Quick note on obliterators, too. They are fragile. Really, really fragile, and they are often the only ranged support in a Chaos army. I can count on one had the time I've seen Oblits stay alive past turn two, and I play Chaos almost every week.

At this point, you are either decent at 40k and know exactly what I'm saying above, or you disagree because you haven't played enough games against good opponents. In either case, I'm not going to go on and on about it.

One final nail in the coffin: BA and SW both do assault armies better. It's why there's so many counts-as-chaos armies done with their codices. It's because BA and SW not only bring hard melee units, but they also have unit variety, real ranged support, and versatile deployment options.

[DarkLink]

He's just complaining and using the codex as an excuse.

A lot of players like to whine about how "bland" and "boring" the codex is. And some units, like Tk Sons, aren't very competitive.

But the codex is still a potent one. There are enough powerful units that CSMs can still do very well.

Besides, they have Plague Marines and Obliterators.

[MajorSoB]

As a 5th edition chaos player I can tell you they are good but not great. Yes there are some power builds ( Slaanesh DP with Plague Marines and Oblits ) but generally they are a very mediocre codex. I was a bigger fan of them in the last codex when cult armies all had special rules and weapons. This codex seems rather bland. I am not a fan of the removal of cult animosity ( apparently all the gods of Chaos are one big happy family now.). But as I said I have played them in 5th edition with some success.

For the most part Sir Biscuit gave you a decent overview. Just a few things opinions that I would offer:

HQ
-Deamon princes are the best by far and with wings and a mark they can stand up to nearly anything in the game.
-Chaos Lords have only one purpose and that is to carry a deamon weapon. Very random but fun to play.

Elites
-Termies rock and are cheap. A squad of 3 deepstriking with combi-weapons come in at 105 points. How can you go wrong?
-Possessed are random but when you roll power weapons they can be a game changer. They do come with their own invul. save as well.

Troops
- They are all good but plague marines are the real bargain since feel no pain is game breaking.

Fast attack
-Raptors with the MoT are hard as nails but can be somewhat pricey as well.
-Spawn may be the worse unit in the game, right up their with WH penitent engines!

HQ
-Oblits are a bit toned down from what they were but are so flexible.
-Vindis should almost always take demonic possession. They are a great distraction and fire magnet.

Deamons
-Greater deamons are cheap as hell for what they do. True they kill an aspiring champ when they come in ( so keep a few cheap champs around for this purpose!) but if you play your army correctly they will get to charge on the round they appear. They rock.
-Lesser deamons also are good but not great. They can tie up units and tip a deadlocked combat in your favor when used correctly.

Just my opinion...

[Big mek]

As a 5th edition chaos player I can tell you they are good but not great. Yes there are some power builds ( Slaanesh DP with Plague Marines and Oblits ) but generally they are a very mediocre codex. I was a bigger fan of them in the last codex when cult armies all had special rules and weapons. This codex seems rather bland. I am not a fan of the removal of cult animosity ( apparently all the gods of Chaos are one big happy family now.). But as I said I have played them in 5th edition with some success.

For the most part Sir Biscuit gave you a decent overview. Just a few things opinions that I would offer:

HQ
-Deamon princes are the best by far and with wings and a mark they can stand up to nearly anything in the game.
-Chaos Lords have only one purpose and that is to carry a deamon weapon. Very random but fun to play.

Elites
-Termies rock and are cheap. A squad of 3 deepstriking with combi-weapons come in at 105 points. How can you go wrong?
-Possessed are random but when you roll power weapons they can be a game changer. They do come with their own invul. save as well.

Troops
- They are all good but plague marines are the real bargain since feel no pain is game breaking.

Fast attack
-Raptors with the MoT are hard as nails but can be somewhat pricey as well.
-Spawn may be the worse unit in the game, right up their with WH penitent engines!

HQ
-Oblits are a bit toned down from what they were but are so flexible.
-Vindis should almost always take demonic possession. They are a great distraction and fire magnet.

Deamons
-Greater deamons are cheap as hell for what they do. True they kill an aspiring champ when they come in ( so keep a few cheap champs around for this purpose!) but if you play your army correctly they will get to charge on the round they appear. They rock.
-Lesser deamons also are good but not great. They can tie up units and tip a deadlocked combat in your favor when used correctly.

Just my opinion...

Ooooh, remember my worst nightmare... played against an IG army, and was looking forward for my huge unit of possessed to rip up the whole infantry section of the enemy.... only to be sent crying when they hit a huge massive wall of.... Ratlings... i mean, possessed should eat them in a sec, but some very very poor dice rolling meant that my possies had lost first rounf of combat, thankfully they were fearless... next round ratlings lost, but passed ld test, a tie on the next cc round (if my memory serves right) and finally at 4th round of combat or so, i managed to wipe them, at the expence of a few possessed, quite lousy performance by the best of the best in my army, and quite alot of teasing by fellow gamers whenever the talk fall on Ratlings!!

[bad moon on afull moon]

i agree with almost everything there, but about the lesser daemons, theyre absolutely destructive in combat and cheap for their ability to charge after deepstriking, 20 of them charging after deepstriking from an icon, on an unsuspecting foe, get 60 attacks at I4 for 260pts,ive found them very useful for getting rid of deathstar units full of powerfists, or in one game, ghazgkull and 20 orkboys in one round of combat

[Grabnutz]

Am I the only CSM Commander here who plays for fun rather than Tournament placings?

The Warband of Old Scrote the Scrofulous, Warden of the Northen Pustules, Stand-up Comic and Sorcerer of Father Nurgle, wins sometimes and loses sometimes. In the majority of the cases it is a combination of generalship and luck that cause those results, win or lose.

The one thing the army does bring me is endless fun. Watching Bob the Blaster (Obliterator) appear behind the enmy's precious armour and reduce it to cinders (often killing himself in the process) makes me laugh until my sides hurt. Or the faces on my opponents as I describe in great detail as Old Scrote passes gas (Wind of Chaos) and melts their super combat unit into puddles. There are also the times when the Plague Marines seem to be made of tissue paper and the termies scatter off the board, again (I like risky deep strikes - so shoot me).

My point is that I choose armies that make me smile. Yes I do read the various web-tactica out there, and even take their advice sometimes, but I go into a battle hoping to have some fun. If I 'win' as well then that's a bonus.

CSM, like Orks, are one of those armies that are a converter & modeller's wet dream. No carefully described iconography or regular lines of identical troops here. For that alone I don't give a fig about the competitiveness of the Codex. As I am sure Lao Tzu would have said, an army wins on the skills of its general, not the weapons of its troops.

[UltramarineFan]

It is a strong codex. It is competitive. It does have some awesome units. However this is irrelevant because a lot of people refuse to be happy with it. Why? Legions. Great as the codex is it does not do that great a job at representing the legions, sure you can build armies around some of the main ones(Death Guard, World Eaters, Black Legion etc.) but some of the others just get sidelined(Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers etc.).
So until we get a codex where the legions are properly represented then you will have people complaining but the reality is that it is easy to use and easily competitive.