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  1. #71

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    Mike was nice with his response because he's that kind of guy. I'm not.


    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    OMG is this the crackheads throne of gundam 10' touney???

    1,2,3,4) wait so if your army looks shiny and your a nice guy you can beat the most amazing players ever?????
    Yes. The whole point of the hobby is to paint up models and play games with them. The 'Most Amazing Players Ever" are the ones who do the whole thing - painting included. Some of us actually have the crazy idea that sportsmanship is more important that winning. Funny that.....

    5) WTF
    Simple. Mike knows more about it than you.

    6) right thas just silly= he who buys the most expensive FW fighter/bomber wing wins???
    Again, you do not know, yet love to pass judgement. Your statement is just wrong.

    7) be prepared to see LOtS of gundam and CA (also does this meant those who artn 40 or dont have CA cant make ther own tanks )
    Wrong again, and who cares if it looks good and we have fun?

    8) a $5 gw coupon :P
    Not for you. Apparently you don't understand WHY such a tournament would be popular.

    This is a tournament FOR THE REST OF US. If you don't want to participate then don't worry about it. And the most ultimate tactical genius player of all time will not be missed if he can't do the rest of the stuff, like paint and be a good sport.

    My name is Clay Smith. I will be there this weekend. Please drop by and take a look if you're in the area. And when it's over, I hope to put up a comprehensive report so everyone can see what we did.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
    Mike was nice with his response because he's that kind of guy. I'm not.
    Which makes him cool, and you a douchebag?
    Yes. The whole point of the hobby is to paint up models and play games with them.
    The whole point of the hobby is as a tool for GW to sell miniatures and books. Aside from that, what you do with the hobby is up to each individual person, not some lame-*** elitist.
    Last edited by Melissia; 06-16-2010 at 07:56 PM. Reason: cleaned up post
    The mouth of the Emperor shall meditate wisdom; from His tongue shall speak judgment

  3. #73

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    Well said Senekal.
    I've been pouring over this thread and frankly I'm alarmed at the negativity, really alarmed. Wow, you dudes take tourneys WAY too seriously. Do you even have fun at events?

    I play at any event I can. I play miniature games, card games and board games in tournaments. I've played in dozens of events in dozens of cities over the years. I never care about comp, painting or sports scoring. I go to play, chain smoke and make funny with other nerds. I go to laugh and get inspired.

    I've played at several Astonomicons over their ten year run and they have ALWAYS been killer. Yeah it's pricey, but so's a Land Raider. If your complaining about costs, you shouldn't play Games Workshop games. I found the high cost keeps out the twelve year olds. I'm an old fart and I like playing older players. VDR and fliers has NEVER mattered. Sure it's there, but you also have to BUILD the model. I brought one once, a triple barreled, chain linked mortar for my Nurgle legion. Everyone had a laugh as they blasted it off the table in turn two. Then I never used the model again. Downside to VDR. The heavy paint scoring ensures you are facing off against great looking armies. I frigging HATE playing in a tourney again unpainted crap, totally amateur.

    Bottom line is these guys run a fun, challenging event. If you hate the sound of it, don't go. You won't be missed. If you want to be challenged, play on great tables against great armies and opponents, then nut up and roll up.

    -chris

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by inquisitorbroeska View Post
    Well said Senekal.
    I've been pouring over this thread and frankly I'm alarmed at the negativity, really alarmed. Wow, you dudes take tourneys WAY too seriously. Do you even have fun at events?
    I usually do unless I run into

    I frigging HATE playing in a tourney again unpainted crap, totally amateur.
    That guy.

  5. #75

    Default My 2.3333 cents

    Wow, this thread is pretty intense! Let me pike in as a ‘Local Moron’ who’s been around since Astro first started...

    Now, I’ve never attended an Astronomi-con, but I’m hoping that this year will be my first time. It’s never really been a matter of not wanting to go, but the stars are never aligned to see me show up (damn real life). I’ll be the first to say that Astronomi-Con is a QUALITY event. You will never see more enthusiastic, good attitude, and knowledgeable 40k players in one place. Even though I’ve never made it to play in an Astro, I’ve tried to come out as much as I can just to see the players and armies that show up.
    That being said, Astro LOOKS amazing. The quality of armies that show up is second to none, with a solid-chunk of golden demon armies being present. I’ve seen converted ork flyers, to impeccable Gray Knights, all the way to elephant mounted Imperial Guard (not kidding).

    In all seriousness, what shocked me most about this was the stereotyping I see at play here. Having played in several Canadian based tournaments and several in the US, there is distinct difference between play styles in the two countries. Yes, some countries still keep the soft scores, and yes some even like to reward players for sportsmanship. It’s a preference in a lot of cases as to what a player wants to see at a tournament. If you don’t like soft scores, and that determines your attendance than Astro might not be ideal for you. Nuff’ said there.

    Personally, I dislike tournaments where Sportsmanship is a checkbox of “Did your opponent remember to bring pants YES/NO?”. I grew up in a system where sportsmanship was a 1-5 scale where you as the player had to make the choice on what you thought of your opponent. Was it fair? Hard to say, but you didn’t see the 100% scores that a lot of other events seem to have now,

    For the ‘Hard Scoring’ game, I play Warmachine.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
    Mike was nice with his response because he's that kind of guy. I'm not.
    So? You're mad because someone, somewhere, disagrees with you? And those people are somehow bad for doing so?

    We've stated our opinions on what we feel works best for a tournament. You disagree? Fine. That's cool.

    But attacking our opinions just because we disagree with you? Check your attitude at the door.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
    Yes. The whole point of the hobby is to paint up models and play games with them. The 'Most Amazing Players Ever" are the ones who do the whole thing - painting included.
    And why should someone be punished because they don't care for painting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
    Some of us actually have the crazy idea that sportsmanship is more important that winning. Funny that.....
    Some of us have the idea that being polite and respectful of others opinions, even when we think they're wrong, is important. Funny that...

    And don't think that just because we don't want sportsmanship scores, doesn't mean that we're all the dreaded WAAC player (who in reality are very rare, though one does rear its ugly head from time to time).

    Personally, I don't think sportsmanship is something to be scored, because sportsmanship should be a prerequisite to play. If my opponent is being rude or cheating enough to cause problems, then tell them to grow up. Kick them out, if you have too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
    This is a tournament FOR THE REST OF US. If you don't want to participate then don't worry about it. And the most ultimate tactical genius player of all time will not be missed if he can't do the rest of the stuff, like paint and be a good sport.
    You could accomplish the exact same thing with separate scores for painting, sportsmanship and gaming, and have Best Painter, Best General and Best Sport awards. And everyone would be happy that way, not just "the rest of us". That can create conflict where it really isn't needed.
    Last edited by DarkLink; 06-15-2010 at 09:55 PM.
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  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post
    Personally, I don't think sportsmanship is something to be scored, because sportsmanship should be a prerequisite to play. If my opponent is being rude or cheating enough to cause problems, then tell them to grow up. Kick them out, if you have too.
    I agree with you in principle. The difficulty is what you can do in practice. In any kind of large event you have to first notice the problem, which means going by the table when some kind of kerfuffle is going on or having someone actually complain. Let me tell you - no matter how big the jerk almost NO ONE will complain to an organizer. So it's almost chance unless you have a huge staff of refs who are going to stand at each table and be bored to tears for several days. Not feasible in practice.

    For those events that care about sportsmanship, the scoring is mostly there to keep honest people honest. The real jerks quickly become evident (thankfully they're rare) but it is those little sportsman cards that tell you, as an organizer, "Houston, we have a problem" and give you the chance to do something about it.

    It would be nice if everyone were always fair, even keeled and fun to be around. Sadly the human race isn't quite that evolved yet...



    You could accomplish the exact same thing with separate scores for painting, sportsmanship and gaming, and have Best Painter, Best General and Best Sport awards. And everyone would be happy that way, not just "the rest of us". That can create conflict where it really isn't needed.
    Can't speak for other folks but this is precisely what we do at Astro which is why there are so many awards.

    Best Overall is just that - most total tournament points. The winner is generally at least a very good painter but is often not the Best General, the Best Sportsman etc. He's often second or third in many of these but totals high enough in all of them together to have the highest score. Truly the best 'overall' hobbiest at the event - at least by the metrics we use.

    Best Sportsman is obvious.

    Best Appearance is the Highest Appearance score.

    Best Army is voted on by the attendees. So is Best Single Miniature and Best Terrain.

    Best General is for the person with the most points for winning games. No other criteria (I think Composition, for which there is no award, is used as a tiebreak)

    Best Army list is probably the most subjective of the lot. A lot of folks above have this weird idea that this is about what's in the list (ie part of Comp) but it isn't. This is about the creativity that goes into presenting the list for your army. A standard Army Builder or Excel list is, for instance, a four out of ten. A list which includes history of your army, names of characters, photos of models or even hand done art or all matter of other things increases the score. It's a reward for investing in the army's background and its presentation. The very rare tens have been things like entirely hand done comic books about the army, multi media presentations complete with pirate music and dancing grots (for an Ork Freebootaz army) and once even an entire IG backpack full of personal items and kit. The list was a bloodstained journal at the bottom.

    We have players who come only to compete for the Best General, or Best Appearance because they know that's where their strengths lie.

    So we are doing that.

    Comp, by the way, is not a 'competition' (since the system is published and has no subjective component). It serves us in two ways. 1) This is the kind of army we expect to see at the event (and which will also perform well at it, leading to more fun play) and for seeding for the initial games. Everyone can have a 20 as far as we're concerned, it won't bother us but it would be an event with less 'tuned' armies.

  8. #78
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    Guys, I've been playing 40k for about 20 years and I've been to many tourneys and I can honestly say that Astro is the single best tourney system I have ever played. Like Mike says it may not be to everyones liking, but it really made me take stock of the way I was playing the game. After my first Astro in Winnipeg about six or seven years ago I was really frustrated with my scores and I had to seriously re-evaluate my playing style, painting skills and especially my sportsmanship. It pissed me off that I hadn't done very well. I took the time to evaluate my performance and try to elevate my game and it paid off.

    I've been going to Astro Winnipeg every year since my first sub par performance because it was a lot of fun. The missions they use are fantastic, the terrain is top notch and the player base they draw is the best thing of all. Every year after the GW Toronto GT I left angry at having to play so many arse wipes...maybe it was just poor luck of the draw...but after an Astro event I leave wanting to play more
    40k , not less. I'm charged up to paint and convert even more models. I quit going to GW run events all together because they just don't measure up to the quality of an Astro tournement. I can honestly say that trying to succed at Astro has made me a much better overall player. My painting got way better, my generalship improved greatly and I learned how not to be a douchebag to my opponent. In the last six years I went from being an also ran to winning Best Overal two years in a row with different armies. I also had a best army one year in Toronto and a best army list once. I'm not saying this for self aggrandizement but to illustrate that the quality of your opponents and the quality of the event can be used to elevate your game too. A lot is expected of a player at an Astro and that first year my shortcomings were painfully obvious to me looking back at it.

    I think people would do well to give this type of tournment a shot. It is a great experince that is very different from the standard tourney that most are used to. Like Mike said, it may not be for everyone but if you have an open mind you will find it fun, and very challenging. I'd strongly reccomend trying it out, rather than ****ting on it because it dosen't fit the standard tourney format you may be accustomed to. Give it a try and you'll probably enjoy it.

  9. #79

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    I'm just absolutely amazed by the ignorance of you people.

    I've been playing for almost 15 years and this "Ard Boyz mentality" thing you seem to have is less than 3 years old.

    I've been to several Astro's and they've all been a blast. What makes it so awesome is that you CAN bring VDR if you want and you CAN bring your forgeworld kits and your flyer. but it doesn't mean that everyone does. It's there to give players the option to make really cool armies and original ideas.

    In a soft score system people who come out just to play to win games don't win the tournament. They can only win Best General. If winning games is all you care about GO PLAY MAGIC THE GATHERING you'll be in good company.

    Astro had a guard player come out one year with VDR'd elephants instead of chimera's! How awesome is that? You won't see that anywhere else and that's at the core of the hobby. Why do you think they made VDR in the first place? why do you think they put Rick Priestley's Deoderant bottle tank on the cover of white dwarf? Astro is a chance to play with that mentality in a tournament environment.

    You just immediately take the standpoint that this system is open to horrible abuse and is full of cheese mongers. It's not. In ten years of Astro's and similar local cons that has never happened.

    We've had 1 chipmunker in that time and he got chastised by the community. He never played in a 40k event again, we wouldn't let him because we didn't tolerate that kind of behavior.

    I have been organizing tournaments for over 5 years in a similar format to Astro that I have consistently filled to capacity having events of up to 40 players. Every player always has a blast, and they almost all come back the next year. Why do they come back? because I provide them more than just 4 terrain tables and a structure for playing 3 rounds of 40k to decide who can win the most games.

    People come out to my tournaments to hang out, see the cool (fully painted) armies and the terrain that we spend months building. We're not talking about 2 hills and 2 tree stands that US players call "regulation terrain" for tournaments here either.

    We charge more to give players are nicer place to play in. We rent hotel ballrooms so that you don't have to have 40 people crammed into a small gaming store.

    These people play in store run quicky tournaments to start and then come out to our event to see what a 'real' tournament is like. And you know what? They don't want to go back to playing in tournaments that only gameplay matters after that.

    It's simple we try to draw a higher class of player.

    Tournaments with a soft scoring system are nothing new. You should look up the Rogue Trader Tournament system for 5 years ago. A 30% for painting, 30% for sportsmanship and 30% for gameplay was the RECOMMENDED system pushed out by games workshop up until the release of the 'Ard boys tournament system. This is the system that my tournament is based on, and Astro originated with as well.

    To borrow Senekal's famous words "We've evolved past the rogue trader system".
    You clearly have devolved, taking queues from Wizards on how to run Magic tournaments is not the foundation for a solid hobbiest tournament system.

    Why was it done this way? Because painting, modeling and sportsmanship are very important parts of the hobby. Something that alot of people conveniently forget.

    And why should someone be punished because they don't care for painting?
    and why should someone who spent 3 years hand painting a golden demon class army have to insulted having to play against a guy who can't even bother to spray prime his figs?

    It's in my tournament rules clear as day "Players who show up the day of the tournament with unpainted figures will not be allowed to play"

    My players spent the time and effort to paint and make high quality armies, they expect the same respect back.

    6 ) Imperial Armor is in, Apocalypse's incredibly powerful flyer rules are in but the various Apocalypse AA units are not
    Having fought several flyers in a tournament 40k game, they aren't as powerful as people make them out to be. They came, they got shot down, he cried, I won.
    Flyers are an interesting addition to the game, but assuming there a game winner is mistake. You don't need AA guns to shoot one down either. I killed a thunderbolt with a Big Shoota.
    Any suitably skilled player will win out against all odds.


    7 ) VDR is allowed. Holy 2004 batman.
    Out of context I can see why you find that alarming.
    In context VDR is a great system for allowing custom figs.
    Astro doesn't just allow any VDR either, if you bothered to read the rules you'd see the judges require rules and pictures ahead of time to prevent people from showing up with crazy broken figs.

    If a player spent alot of time converting his land speeders into jeeps to use for his marines why shouldn't he be allowed to use them? That's cool.

    And as for the player who models a VDR 12" wide dozer blade to give his squad cover as they move up? That's just being a d*****bag.

    8 ) The tournament is somehow 75 dollars without any mention of prize support
    $75 bucks is a land raider and you have no problems paying that.

    besides... DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT IT COSTS TO RUN A TOURNAMENT!?
    Renting a nice room with 600 sqr feet for a day can cost upwards of $1000

    2 days = $2000
    2000 / 40 players = $50 a player just to cover the room
    Plus there's administration costs, terrain costs, travel costs.
    Renting tables and setup fees are usually extra.
    We have or domain name and website to keep up, the cost of the graphic artist for the posters and artwork.
    Your name tags, trophies, objective counters, scenario sheets, score sheets those all cost money too.

    How professional is it to hand a sheet of looseleaf to a player and say "Here, just jot down your name and if you won or lost"

    And where does this money come from?
    *Our pocket that's where.*
    Until you pay us the day of.
    I'm not in this to make money either, I barely break even

    And yes we have to pay for your prizes too.

    ait so if your army looks shiny and your a nice guy you can beat the most amazing players ever?????
    Yes, but only if you manage to beat out every other player who plays well, gets a great sportsmanship score and paints better than you do.

    You spent all this time and effort painting your army, why the hell SHOULDN'T you get scored for it?

    6) right thas just silly= he who buys the most expensive FW fighter/bomber wing wins???
    Only if all his opponents don't know what they're doing. I haven't seen a flyer heavy army win a tournament yet. There not a make or break model. They help yes, but they can get shot down, they don't automatically rape an entire army for you and they can't grab objectives.

    It's such a fallacy to assume that spending money on 40k will win you games.
    The 2008 GT winner had 60 marines a librarian and a rhino, that's it.
    How did he win against flyers? he shot them down
    How did he win against land raiders full of lightning claw terminators? he shot at them
    How did he win against a swarm of bugs? He out shot them, then out numbered them in hth
    Simply put, he out played his opponents with what looked like crap on paper

    Hey Senekal what was in your GT winning space marine list again?
    I don't remember seeing a flyer, titan or a land raider in there.

    7) be prepared to see LOtS of gundam and CA (also does this meant those who artn 40 or dont have CA cant make ther own tanks )
    Try high end forgeworld figs, custom sculpted tyranid monsters and scratch built realistic tanks, jeeps and elephants (yes elephants!) then you might be more in the solar system.

    What is the difference between Composition and Army list? Dump this crap already.
    Composition is what you choose in your army, army list is the physical list you hand in.

    Some players hand in an excel spreadsheet or hand written crap.
    Some players use graphic design skills to print off high quality lists with fluff and pictures/artwork.

    The first guys get no points, the second guys get points for army list.

    Ugh... Here goes the chipmunking...
    There are rules against that, if you look at the scoring during the day its obvious if anyone's chipmunking.
    We deal with it simply, it's cheating. You do it, you're gone!

    If it is Astro I signed up for it Didn't read the points value stuff, but I know about Imperial Armor and VDR. To be fair the Flyers might not always win because the tables are supposed to be "terrain heavy" and the battles are all battle missions like.
    Astro missions vary from table to table. On one table you could be grabing objectives, the next you need to take and hold a building, the next your fighting for kill points and the next your trying to blow up a baneblade. Some terrain is light, other is heavy.

    Real battlefields aren't open fields with 2 tree stands and a hill, so why should 40k games be that way?

    40k games should challenge a player about his skill as a player, not just his skill at making an armylist.

    Army comp is a big deal, but it's not everything.

    Get painting the F-CK out of competitive gaming tournaments FFS!! Go enter a painting contest.
    Get generalship only players out of 40k tournaments, go play magic the gathering!


    I see a trend here, all you people who bash Astro have never even seen it or played in it!

    Go play or go watch, then judge. Don't just read the rules and assume things.

    If you still don't like it, play in the 'Ard boyz that's what its for.
    Last edited by DarkAlman; 06-16-2010 at 12:34 AM.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shavnir View Post
    See, this is where I tune out. Anytime you authoritatively say what is and isn't part of "the hobby" I want to crap all over my thread like I did with the other one with arbitrary categorizations as to what "the hobby" is and isn't. What if the hobby for me is arguing about rules? Why should I be penalized for enjoying the hobby?
    Get out then.

    This hobby has always been about playing games with PAINTED FIGURES.

    Can you GUESS what the first actual miniatures wargame was, when it was written and who wrote it? H.G. Wells "Little Wars"....and it was designed for the express purpose of taking collections of model soldiers off of shelves and onto a model battlefield to push around and fight battles. Winning/losing is just a scenario objective.

    Even today, when you lose, the figures just go back into the box. They still look cool in the next game.

    If you're so hyper-competitive...play chess. Or Magic. Or something else that isn't designed for playing with model soldiers. Good grief - 40K is a crappy ruleset for a competitive game.

    When I show up for a game, I expect my opponent to have put in the effort to get his army presentable. That is MORE IMPORTANT than winning/losing to me. You want to win, I want to see painted troops. If you brought a painted army, I'd be happy and play to win but not get all worked up about it and certainly wouldn't argue rules with you.

    So I suggest you find another gaming outlet...this one is a strange choice for somebody who doesn't want to paint figures.

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