Local Tournaments are getting weird

[Paul]

Get out then.

This hobby has always been about playing games with PAINTED FIGURES.

Can you GUESS what the first actual miniatures wargame was, when it was written and who wrote it? H.G. Wells "Little Wars"....and it was designed for the express purpose of taking collections of model soldiers off of shelves and onto a model battlefield to push around and fight battles. Winning/losing is just a scenario objective.

Even today, when you lose, the figures just go back into the box. They still look cool in the next game.

If you're so hyper-competitive...play chess. Or Magic. Or something else that isn't designed for playing with model soldiers. Good grief - 40K is a crappy ruleset for a competitive game.

When I show up for a game, I expect my opponent to have put in the effort to get his army presentable. That is MORE IMPORTANT than winning/losing to me. You want to win, I want to see painted troops. If you brought a painted army, I'd be happy and play to win but not get all worked up about it and certainly wouldn't argue rules with you.

So I suggest you find another gaming outlet...this one is a strange choice for somebody who doesn't want to paint figures.

I have been waiting for someone to say that for years; I always thought it was weird that people wanted to play a game with toy soldiers, but didn't care what the soldiers looked like.

Why pay the money? You could just buy paper counters and write Lasgun, Plasma Gun, Power Sword or whatever on them and get the same effect as an unpainted army.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

Why pay the money? You could just buy paper counters and write Lasgun, Plasma Gun, Power Sword or whatever on them and get the same effect as an unpainted army.

In high school I didn't have a lot of money for models. And I actually learned to play Warhammer Fantasy with paper blocks. We would create them on our computers to get the scale right and then print them out and mark them off or cut them off as "models" died. So, playing with paper isn't too far a stretch of the imagination. However, my gaming group was rather large considering that I rarely if ever played at a game store until college. I was lucky to have a group of friends who were into gaming. So, not having models, which most of us didn't, wasn't that big of a deal.

[Shavnir]

Get out then.

Nope. I will continue to sit here and play this game just because it bothers you that ******* much.

Seriously. Get over yourself.

When I show up for a game, I expect my opponent to have put in the effort to get his army presentable. That is MORE IMPORTANT than winning/losing to me. You want to win, I want to see painted troops. If you brought a painted army, I'd be happy and play to win but not get all worked up about it and certainly wouldn't argue rules with you.

I actually would rather have an opponent that had an unpainted solid list and lose than win over someone who's holier-than-thou about painting.

EDIT : It doesn't look like I could stop for your tournament anyways. No, literally, my brakes are going out and I'm going to spend Saturday getting new pads put in.

[Senekal]

Hey Senekal what was in your GT winning space marine list again?
I don't remember seeing a flyer, titan or a land raider in there.

Well except for Armorcast there weren't any Titans back then. And very few flyers too. I did have a Land Raider but I didn't bring it.

Let's see...

There was a Chaplain, a Commander with Retinue (which back then everyone said sucked), some tactical squads in rhinos, two of them I think, a scout squad, a dev squad in a razorback and some bikes (which everyone also said sucked).

Pretty sure that was it.

[Melissia]

This hobby has always been about playing games with PAINTED FIGURES.

Shows how much you know-- which is nothing. The hobby has always been nothing more than a tool for GW to sell miniatures in order to make a profit. All other aspects of the hobby are guided by the individual hobbyist, not by elitists like you.

Painting is an unimportant aspect of the hobby to quite a few people. Some want to game. They buy miniatures because the miniatures are the right ones for the game. They buy the codices because those are the ones they need to use to play the game. They go to the store to game. They might paint their models specifically to ensure that they can tell their models apart from other armies of the same codex or because of asinine rules in tournaments which require it, but it really isn't important to them. If this offends you, please, remain offended, while I point and laugh.

Other people just love the background. Maybe they're unable to paint very well, or don't enjoy it, but either way they buy the miniatures because those are the ones that officially represent the armies they love the most-- and their personal army, the one they created with their own minds. Sometimes they get into Dark Heresy, and I suspect even more will with the upcoming Deathwatch version of the PnPRPG system. It may not be the best competitively, but it's the one they love. They buy the codices for the fluff in them, and they read Black Library's better books because of what's in them. And they write their own fiction about their own personal army. Painting is often a chore to them, because they're not very good at it (most people aren't, even those supposedly really into painting often suck at painting miniatures), and they might not enjoy it, but they do it if only to try and match the background created for their given army. If this also offends you, then please remain offended some more! I will continue pointing. And laughing.

[inquisitorbroeska]

The hobby has always been nothing more than a tool for GW to sell miniatures in order to make a profit. All other aspects of the hobby are guided by the individual hobbyist, not by elitist dip****s like you.

Dude, that's the definition of business, not a hobby. A hobby lets me enjoy some zen time painting or playing games with my friends. Of course GW makes a profit. Like anyone does anything for free for your benefit. I don't see the point of saying that. I dig you like to argue and disagree, but you're making less sense as this thread continues. I love this whole idea that Games Workshop is evil because they make money as a business. Yet people keep playing and buying their stuff, *****ing the whole way along. If they didn't turn a profit, there would be no new models. That's business.

[Ratboy]

Shows how much you know-- which is nothing. The hobby has always been nothing more than a tool for GW to sell miniatures in order to make a profit. All other aspects of the hobby are guided by the individual hobbyist, not by elitist dip****s like you.

I totally agree on this (minus the dip**** part). The goal of GW games is for GW to make money, and the aspects of the hobby are dominated by the people who play it. Up here in the Cold White North, many of our tournaments were shaped by what RTTs were like at the time, and this included comp, painting, sportsmanship, and the like. Up here it is commonplace to have a requirement for painted armies, sure it's not for all people, but it's something as a community we've decided on.

Painting is an unimportant aspect of the hobby to quite a few people. Some want to game. They buy miniatures because the miniatures are the right ones for the game. They buy the codices because those are the ones they need to use to play the game. They go to the store to game. They might paint their models specifically to ensure that they can tell their models apart from other armies of the same codex or because of asinine rules in tournaments which require it, but it really isn't important to them. If this offends you, please, remain offended, while I point and laugh.

Unoffended here! I play Warmachine with a bunch of local gamers here, and unlike our 40k community we are very laid back when it comes to that game. Most armies here are unpainted or 'ghost white' armies, and that's viewed as being ok. I still keep some of my 40k programming and tend to paint up my figs in preparation for events, but that's about it.

What gets me about the 'surprise' from some people around here is that even GW stores (at least up here) require that you show up with painted models only if you plan on playing a game at their stores. Heck most GW events mandate that you MUST have a painted army in order to play. This isn't something new, and sure there can be a lot of debate about it... but it's Astro's choice. If this idea offends you, please, remain offended, and maybe run your own event. It's what I did

Other people just love the background. Maybe they're unable to paint very well, or don't enjoy it, but either way they buy the miniatures because those are the ones that officially represent the armies they love the most-- and their personal army, the one they created with their own minds. Sometimes they get into Dark Heresy, and I suspect even more will with the upcoming Deathwatch version of the PnPRPG system. It may not be the best competitively, but it's the one they love. They buy the codices for the fluff in them, and they read Black Library's better books because of what's in them. And they write their own fiction about their own personal army. Painting is often a chore to them, because they're not very good at it (most people aren't, even those supposedly really into painting often suck at painting miniatures), and they might not enjoy it, but they do it if only to try and match the background created for their given army. If this also offends you, then please remain offended some more! I will continue pointing. And laughing.

I am a huge fan of Dark Heresy and other 'fluff' aspects of the hobby, it's something that has always attracted me to the 40k universe. I remember when Astro had a quiz during the middle of the tournament specifically geared towards rewarding the Fluff heads among the crowd.

I already touched on the painting bit above, so I won't beat a dead horse...

[Melissia]

The hobby has always been nothing more than a tool for GW to sell miniatures in order to make a profit. All other aspects of the hobby are guided by the individual hobbyist, not by elitist dip****s like you.

Dude, that's the definition of business, not a hobby. A hobby lets me enjoy some zen time painting or playing games with my friends. Of course GW makes a profit. Like anyone does anything for free for your benefit. I don't see the point of saying that. I dig you like to argue and disagree, but you're making less sense as this thread continues. I love this whole idea that Games Workshop is evil because they make money as a business. Yet people keep playing and buying their stuff, *****ing the whole way along. If they didn't turn a profit, there would be no new models. That's business.

And, since you aren't actually paying any attention, GW is a business. A business that created this hobby to encourage people to buy its miniatures and books so that it could profit. This goes with my point was that you have no right to define the hobby for anyone other than yourself and you're an idiot with a head up somewhere if you seriously try and do so.

I never stated that businesses are evil, but I can see where someone might see that. But only if they're incompetent, illiterate, stupid, and/or didn't bother to read the post they were responding to (Which implies the first one anyway).

[Senekal]

Shows how much you know-- which is nothing. The hobby has always been nothing more than a tool for GW to sell miniatures in order to make a profit. All other aspects of the hobby are guided by the individual hobbyist, not by elitist dip****s like you.

It has an element of that to be sure but it has never been all about that and only that. I've spent a lot of time with folks who write for GW (and count some of them as friends). While it is a job, they also have a real, decided love for the universe and the background. The game, to those who are writing it and creating it, is far more than just a medium to sell models. The suits see it that way (and the game has often suffered due to their idiocy) but the bulk of those who work at the studio that I have met see that as a very secondary thing. Yes, selling models puts food on their tables, but you just don't get the level of creativity from that amount of people just for cash. Writing just for cash shows. You can really tell which scenes in "A Tale of Two Cities" were written when Dickens just needed to get paid as opposed to being motivated to tell the story - very evident in that work because it was originally published as a weekly newspaper serial not as a complete novel.

No question GW is a company and needs to make money. And that's a good thing because without that we'd have no 41st Millennium, no Space Marines or Guard, no models and no game. None of those would have come to pass without GW needing to make money and sell models. Lots of good with the mercenary there.

Painting is an unimportant aspect of the hobby to quite a few people. Some want to game. They buy miniatures because the miniatures are the right ones for the game. They buy the codices because those are the ones they need to use to play the game. They go to the store to game. They might paint their models specifically to ensure that they can tell their models apart from other armies of the same codex

I can understand entirely how painting might be unimportant to some folks - or even impossible for some. My buddy Jim quite literally cannot paint due to a medical condition (epilepsy meds if anyone cares) which cause his hands to shake far too badly to be able to work in 28mm. But it's better than life threatening seizures! I can understand loving the universe and even the game I guess - although it seems to me that if you are a non-painter most would do what Jim does and just play games that don't require such a task. There are plenty of games now with pre-painted models, some of them quite nice. There are plenty of games that don't use models at all. Virtually all of these have better rules than 40k which, let's be honest, has very poorly put together rules which are often made worse by new codices.

I can see fiction writing or RPGing - those make sense to me. But I don't think I'll ever fathom people playing 40k who don't want their army painted - even if they didn't paint it themselves. I just can't follow the logic.

Mind you - I don't have to as it's not my thing - but it still doesn't make sense to me. Models are very expensive. Why use them at all to game if the appearance isn't important to you? I just can't get my head around it. Make some cardboard counters and save the hundreds of wasted dollars.

or because of asinine rules in tournaments which require it,

Here you're going a bit far. Just as it is reasonable for a purely 'game' tournament to not bother with painting requirements, a 'hobby' tournament is perfectly within their rights to require painted models. Such rules aren't asinine - they emphasize a different part of the hobby. When Astro started we didn't have a painting requirement (although if you wanted anything in the way of a prize other than Best General and maybe Best Sportsman having some paint on your models was pretty much a requirement). Later, due to a number of factors we started requiring a minimum level of paint to enter. We sometimes waive that rule for new communities (such as Dallas) because painting takes a long time but even so we make it clear that if your models aren't painted, you're not likely to win a bloody thing.

This isn't 'asinine' at all. We spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours building and painting really nice terrain and then more time maintaining it. Given that amount of effort, of course it's annoying to see a bunch of bare metal and plastic romping about on it. It greatly detracts from the appearance of the game and of the event. Now, if you don't care about that, that's fine. But we do or we wouldn't put so much work into the terrain - so having a painting requirement isn't 'asinine'. Within such a context bringing a non-painted army is 'asinine'.

It's all about context.

All aspects of the hobby can get along quite well. There is no need to run each other down or start yelling things like 'elitist' or 'asinine' around. To me spending hundreds of dollars on models that could easily be replaced by free counters which would look as good or better is 'asinine' - because it makes absolutely zero sense to me. It's a complete waste of money. But that's my own personal opinion only and I recognize that others don't share it.

Other people just love the background. Maybe they're unable to paint very well, or don't enjoy it, but either way they buy the miniatures because those are the ones that officially represent the armies they love the most-- and their personal army, the one they created with their own minds.

I agree entirely with this as something people love but I don't follow your argument. If the models are unpainted, unconverted and just tossed together out of a box how can there be any kind of attachment to a 'personal army'? They're exactly the same as that other person's over there. You could swap a couple of models, provided they're the same race, and neither owner could tell. I cannot understand how you can see a personal connection from the person's hard created background to the model in such a circumstance.

Now, if the models are converted or painted with a specific scheme or style or basing or unit markings etc. - then I get it. Then those models are personal - unique - YOURS and a reflection of the personal fiction created for them. But a bog standard marine with a boltgun in bare metal or plastic which is the same as every other bog standard marine with a bolter? How does that work?

Sometimes they get into Dark Heresy, and I suspect even more will with the upcoming Deathwatch version of the PnPRPG system. It may not be the best competitively, but it's the one they love. They buy the codices for the fluff in them, and they read Black Library's better books because of what's in them. And they write their own fiction about their own personal army. Painting is often a chore to them, because they're not very good at it (most people aren't, even those supposedly really into painting often suck at painting miniatures), and they might not enjoy it, but they do it if only to try and match the background created for their given army.

There are days I certainly don't enjoy painting, although I am considered to be fairly good at it.

Clay is very very focussed on his painting. It's almost a phobia to him and he's probably one of the most extreme people I know when it comes to that. Playing against unpainted models for him absolutely and completely ruins the game - so you can see where he'd be a big supporter of painted models. For all that he can be intolerant, he will paint models for people, lend them painted models and very much go a long way to support what he believes in. He has a lot of admirable qualities that way that get lost in his desire to see painted models only. I happen to agree that playing against a painted army greatly enhances the game experience and playing against an unpainted one damages it - but to me it doesn't 'ruin' it and I can still enjoy the game.

A live and let live attitude is fine. Some events won't require painting, some will. Both should respect those rules and not slam each other with labels like elitist or asinine. These are simply differences.

I should note, however, that the 'unpainted' thing in tournaments is very new. Even just a few years ago almost no major event I'd ever heard of would allow unpainted models. So a few of the 'older' tournament gamers are going to carry a torch for the good old days, naturally.

[Aldramelech]

Shows how much you know-- which is nothing. The hobby has always been nothing more than a tool for GW to sell miniatures in order to make a profit. All other aspects of the hobby are guided by the individual hobbyist, not by elitist dip****s like you.

Actually the hobby is a tool for GW to sell Miniatures, paints, glue, brushes, books, modeling tools, terrain and computer games in order to make a profit.

Also Paragraph 1, Page 1 of the rulebook:

Warhammer 40,000k is far, far more then just a game. Its is an engrossing and fulfilling pastime that allows you to collect and paint armies of Citadel miniatures and then use them to fight table top battles.

Pargraph 4, Page 1 of the rulebook:

There unlimited possibilities and players must be prepared to expend time and effort collecting, assembling and painting their models.

So I guess the elitist dip****s are GW themselves hun?

Ooooh Im soooo gonna get spanked!