Deffrolla/Tankshock/Ramming

[Jwolf]

At the risk of answering a question without the codex in front of me:

If I remember the Deffrolla rule correctly, models take d6 hits for a Tank Shock and d6 hits for attempting Death or Glory. A Death or Glorying walker would thus suffer 1d6 hits from a Deffrolla; 0d6 for the collision and 1d6 for the Death or Glory attempt.

It seems to me that if we need to classify these things, and we call Tank Shock the overarching rule that covers all "uses of a vehicle to contact enemy models in the movement phase" then we have two separate actions available within that rule: the unfortunately named Tank Shock [non-vehicle] and Vehicle Collisions (which occur under the heading "Ramming"). These are both types of Tank Shock (the main rule) but Vehicle Collisions are not subsets of Tank Shock [non-vehicle] which is an action available to vehicles. Tank Shock (the main rule) is not an action, and therefore cannot be performed by any model (and thus does not activate any options such as Deffrollas). This is a lot of work to go to for a rule that I believe most everyone understands correctly, and going through the entire rule set with this sort of rigor will, I believe, drive us all insane. Since I already have small children this places nothing at risk for me, but I would caution others from following me into the mouth of madness.

[Nabterayl]

At the risk of answering a question without the codex in front of me:

If I remember the Deffrolla rule correctly, models take d6 hits for a Tank Shock and d6 hits for attempting Death or Glory. A Death or Glorying walker would thus suffer 1d6 hits from a Deffrolla; 0d6 for the collision and 1d6 for the Death or Glory attempt.

For reference (not that you don't have the codex, I'm sure, but for the benefit of other readers), the complete text of the rule is:

Deff Rolla: A Deff Rolla is a great spiked roller that brings the collossal weight of the Battleagon to bear on anything in its way. A Battleagon ith a Deff Rolla may re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. Any Tank Shock made by a Battleagon with a Deff Rolla causes D6 Strength hits on the victim unit. If the unit elects to make a Death or Glory attack, it takes a further D6 Strength 10 hits in addition to the usual effects.

1d6 hits on a Death or Glorying walker makes sense to me given your read of the ramming rules; I was just curious.

It seems to me that if we need to classify these things, and we call Tank Shock the overarching rule that covers all "uses of a vehicle to contact enemy models in the movement phase" then we have two separate actions available within that rule: the unfortunately named Tank Shock [non-vehicle] and Vehicle Collisions (which occur under the heading "Ramming"). These are both types of Tank Shock (the main rule) but Vehicle Collisions are not subsets of Tank Shock [non-vehicle] which is an action available to vehicles. Tank Shock (the main rule) is not an action, and therefore cannot be performed by any model (and thus does not activate any options such as Deffrollas).

I think that's a reasonable rule of thumb to use for working through cases under the way I think the rule is written, though I disagree with the conclusion - I think if all uses of a vehicle to contact enemy models in the movement phase fall under Tank Shock (the main rule), then a vehicle collision, as a type of Tank Shock (main rule), would be triggered by the phrase "any Tank Shock."

This is a lot of work to go to for a rule that I believe most everyone understands correctly, and going through the entire rule set with this sort of rigor will, I believe, drive us all insane. Since I already have small children this places nothing at risk for me, but I would caution others from following me into the mouth of madness.

I don't think it's a lot of work to go to to say, "Deff rollas apply to any, and thus all, tank shocks; ramming is a type of tank shock; the general rule about contacting enemy vehicles articulated on page 68 is modified by the special case on page 69, under the conditions articulated." But I'm aware that it apparently strikes most of the player base (or at least a goodly portion of the internet and tournament organizers), and let me reiterate that I do believe in playing games where both parties agree. If I were to ever play any of you and had deffrollas in my list, I'd ask your opinion and acquiesce to your objections, with the request that you let me try to change your mind after the game. As we are not at a game, thank you to all who disagree with me for helping me understand better how the intelligent "no deffrolling vehicles" thinks about things.

Believe it or not, the group of men and women I play with are astonished when I tell them that the national consensus (or at least the internet and tournament consensus) is that deffrollas don't affect vehicles. Deffrollas affecting vehicles is the intuitive reading to them, from a textual, common sense, and even play balance standpoint. Go figure.

[Sarigar]

Sorry to add fuel to the fire. For the 2nd round of the Ard Boyz, GW did include in their info packets given to TO's a ruling that Deff Rollas can Ram vehicles. I remember this was a huge area of contention after results were being posted from Ard Boyz round 1; in fact, some folks flat out called those who allowed Deff Rollas to Ram vehicles a cheater.

Ironically, the UK GT FAQ does not allow Deff Rollas to Ram, nor does the INAT FAQ.

Best bet is to discuss this bit prior to playing, especially at tourney venues.

[Jwolf]

No fuel added. I'll look over the round 2 TO packet when I'm at my FLGS later today. Since John Shafer will be my guest next weekend, I'll bend his ear about this one and help him see the light.

[Nabterayl]

If he takes the opposite position from yours, could you do us all a favor and [politely] try to pin him down on why? FAQs, info packets, and all that are all well and good, and I understand why a company might not want to delve into the murk of posting its logic along with its rulings, but I always find reasoning more useful.