Where do we Draw the Line?

[Bean]

Alright, I'm man enough to admit I was inelegant to the point of offensiveness with my initial post, but I defend its premise.

I don't think it's an incorrect generalization. It's just that - generally true, and to varying degrees. The amount one is visually pleased by a warhammer army has direct relationship with how much effort or expense one expects other gamers to put into their armies. It's not true all the time, but as a generalization, I believe it's accurate.

Incidentally, the rancid with rage comment was alluding to an earlier thread on this board concerning whether or not painting was... yeah, you know the one.

I thought it was pretty clear it was hyperbole, but if it wasn't, I am sorry if I offended anyone.

So, are we cool now?

I accept your apology and accept that you were exaggerating rather than trying to be offensive. We're cool.

I don't think I agree, though, that it's an accurate generalization. As I said, I proxy armies frequently, and I neither hate painting nor am bad at it. I don't think that painting scores are unacceptable. There are about four other people I play with routinely, and all of them are fine with proxies. Two like painting and are better at it than I am. Two don't like painting and are worse at it than I am. They are similarly split on painting scores at tournaments.

There are three of us that are good at painting and two of us that like it.
Three of us who are alright with painting scores at tournaments, one who's ambivalent, and one who thinks they're inappropriate.
None of the five of us mind proxies.

My data set is pretty limited, but it fails to correlate with your generalization. What sort of data do you have that supports it?

Also, I find a great deal of pleasure in a well-painted army, but I don't expect others to put any particular amount of effort at all into their armies. Again, I don't have much data, but the data I do have contradicts your generalization.

[Aldramelech]

No, Aldra. I was right. I asserted that he hadn't mentioned cheating and that was true. That we went on to mention it later doesn't change that.

Honestly, this is just getting pathetic, Aldra. Quit digging. There's nothing here that can redeem you.

No, I correctly interpreted what he was saying in his oringinal post and you did not.

It was quite clear what he was saying but you chose to assert that was not the meaning of what was being said by trying to be clever and acting like a lawyer, and you were wrong. Now your making yourself look even more foolish by trying to wriggle out of it with "Bull**** baffles brains"

Feel free to hand up that shovel in your hand, your deep enough now.

[Bean]

Never mind, Aldra. Trying to talk to you is like trying to talk to a brick wall.

I'm done with you.

[Freefall945]

I suppose our experiences with gamers simply differ. Naturally I have no accurate poll to draw upon here, so this is all anecdotes and hypothesis, but if I were forced to guess based on my experience with proxies, playing people who proxy, and playing people who highly detail their armies visually... well, I've already stated my position.

My standard gaming circle is a mix of painters and non-painters. I'll try to remember to ask them what they think about painting scores specifically, but I feel I may have tainted the sample.

Two of my friends who were dedicated non-painters are nonetheless very pro-paint, because one day in a fit of enthusiasm I volunteered to paint one's army and then, when it beat my own personal army in the painting section of a local tournament, the second friend impressed upon me a similar favor. Those little scarlet Tau glare up at me even now, demanding highlights.

I remain confident however, that if you polled, a standard group of gamers, you'd find a distinct correlation like the one I've suggested. Not that is is really important or helpful in any way.

[Bean]

Fair. Until I see that poll, though, I think I'm going to reject your generalization and the conclusions you might draw from it. =P

[Freefall945]

Also worth noting that I'm not -entirely- against proxies. Whenever the retro-bug bites my group, a surprised group of Eldar find themselves grubbing through the ruins of Mordheim looking for witches to burn.

Those ruins, however, are cardboard boxes, stacks of books, or incongruously present wrecks of Aquila landers and Imperial Shrines. And these things all detract from my experience in the game.

Convenient as proxies are, they are not, can not be, as enjoyable as the legitimate models, painted and posed on corresponding terrain. That's just how I am, and people like me are, wired.







And now I want to play Mordheim.

[Aldramelech]

Never mind, Aldra. Trying to talk to you is like trying to talk to a brick wall. A brick wall which is also, apparently, a compulsive liar.

I'm done with you. It's not even worth reading the garbage you apparently consider to be communication, at this point.

Thats it is it? Thats all you got now, meaningless insults?

[the jeske]

This is the upside of the situation, people being creative and using their imagination to create fantastic armies. But this is a world away from the "I proxie because Im a cheapskate" crowd.

yes of course because when you use a Wood elfs army as nids in w40k it is being creative [0_0 round bases] and when you use space marines to play BAs your being cheap ... totaly makes sense.

[Jwolf]

I'm so tired of reading people being progressively more insulting to each other. Read what you've written, and if you wouldn't talk that way to your grandmother in front of 100 strangers, consider rewriting your post to be more civil.

Both of you actually have reasonable points to make, but the trash talk and foolish posturing in your posts so heavily outweighs the message that you end up both looking like namecalling jerks instead.

[Grabnutz]

My preferences are to NEVER play anyone less than half my age unless they have shown themselves worthy of my attention. Alternatively, if they are unable to go to the bar and buy me a beer, I don't WANT to play them. I joined a wargames club, not a creche, damnit!

I just love this quote and it immediately made me shoot over to your profile to check your age - unfortunately it wasn't public

You see if I applied your rule I wouldn't be able to play anyone under 26, and that would also rule out interacting with 80% of all GW Store Managers

I have founded a couple of wargames clubs in my time and each had a lively junior section. They were noisy, argumentative and liable to get into all sorts of scrapes, but we didn't mind. They are the future of the hobby and we don't help them then GW will and turn them into tiny GW Sturmtruppen.