Where do we Draw the Line?

[erwos]

My friends don't mind, so it's not a problem. Would you find it a problem if I turned up to play you with 1,500 points of GW plastic and another 500 pts of card models?

This is something of "it depends". If this was the first time you did it and the card models were low in number (eg, vehicles), I'd probably let it slide. But if you made a habit of it, no, I'd tell you to field the 1500 points you have, and I'll cut down my list to 1500 points (or pull out my 1500 point list).

[Chris Copeland]

There is one more kind of proxy model that deserves attention: the one that you stick into the force that is made by another company, fits the bill, and you use because it is just a better model.

To be fair, this comes up more often in Fantasy Battles than it does in 40K. There are several companies out there putting out better fantasy models than GW (I'm looking at you Reaper). I know a lot of players who cheerfully replace their GW special characters with more characterful minis by Reaper and other companies.

If I come across any such minis that would supplement my Tyranid army I will happily do the same in 40K... I'll make sure they are kitted properly, painted, and as WYSIWYG as possible... but I won't think twice about customizing my army with non-GW models. There are too many great minis out there!

Outside of playing in a Tourney that has GW prize support (and I TOTALLY understand that they'd want you to only play with GW minis if they are putting up the prizes) I can't see that using such proxies would ever be a problem.

In San Antonio we have two Indy GT events per year: the Alamo GT and the Alamo 40K GT... at both events the organizers make it clear that no particular company's models are required (i.e. feel free to proxy in other minis from other companies). GW isn't footing the bill for the Alamo GTs so that seems right to me.

The kind of proxies I don't like: non models. I once saw a guy put a soda can on a table and call it a carnifex... that's over the line in my book. Cheers...

[Freefall945]

Another reason for proxying... having to fight with more points than you have.

Absolutely. Sometimes this comes up, and in a game between friends, I doubt anyone would begrudge a touch of proxy.

Personally, I'm inclined to dodge it whenever I can, however. If I need to fill out my army with more points, I'll use whatever is available. I have 30 rangers floating around from when Alaitoc was my thing; they occasionally get air time when someone wants a game over the 2000 points of Eldar I have in my take-all-comers list.

[Mystery.Shadow]

I need to be able to identify it at a glance to be able to allow a proxy - even if it's just a piece of paper saying "Space Marine with Flamer".

How about this?

[url]http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Apocalypse/01010639.JPG.html[/url]

Does this count as WYSIWYG?

[HsojVvad]

Well I wanted to play Tyranids, but since my wife and son wanted Orks, I bought an Ork battleforce. Well since loosing my job, and money is a problem, I wanted to use the Ork Trukk as a Tevrigon and all the Orknids it spits out would be the Orks but "count's as Gaunts". I would be using the bikes then as Hive guard since it was long and skinny.

Sometimes you got to do with what you have and make do with what you got. We can still have a fun game playing. I even made up some fluf for as to why it is.

But from what I see, some people wouldn't have fun, and I would be ok if you wouldn't game with me. But do not dare berate me and tell me how this game is suppose to be played. Once you say how the game is supposed to be played, you better prove it, and we all know you can't prove it. You can't quote nothing, you can't show no page numbers or anything like that.

[BlindGunn]

How about this?

[url]http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Apocalypse/01010639.JPG.html[/url]

Does this count as WYSIWYG?

As a friendly game, trying out new things, sure.

At a tournament setting - no!

(Sadly, I'm blind enough I can't read the writing on the Falcon - I assume it's legible?)

[Grabnutz]

In my personal opinion, and it is my personal opinion, there is far too much instant gratification in the hobby as a whole, with people fliting between this army and that at the drop of a hat. If people spent more time on their armies they'd give them a bit more thought and wouldn't need to try out new things they cant afford every five minutes. Again, my personal opinion, and one that I usually keep to myself.

Instant gratification in a hobby where even a small but playable force is going to cost you in excess of £100? Personally I come from a generation where the watchwords were 'make do and mend'.

Thus I will continue to have to field armies that may well have a few proxies from time to time to either make up the points or to let me try things before I buy them.

There again the very poor rule control at GW means that what is a reasonable unit to buy in one edition becomes a crock of sherbet in the next, necessitating more purchases. Another reason to proxy.

[Grabnutz]

There is one more kind of proxy model that deserves attention: the one that you stick into the force that is made by another company, fits the bill, and you use because it is just a better model.

I couldn't agree more Chris, especially since the plastic moulding company Renedra began offering sub-contract mould making and production for independent sculptors at a reasonable cost. So now we have new companies like Mantic Games and Wargames Factory pouring out top class product at prices that must be making GW management scream with despair.

And don't forget our old faithfuls like EM-4. I recently purchased 150 (that is one hundred and fifty folks) plastic 28mm fantasy dwarves in three poses (Big Axe, Spear and Crossbow) for, wait for it, £22.50. Sure they ain't state of the art, but they are honest clean sculpts that take paint very well. Added to the dwarves I got in the Skull Pass box and a few metals I have hanging around and I can field 2,500 points for three-fourths of beggar all.

They also do plastic orcs, and a variety of plastic SF figures for equally silly prices.

So unless you intend to spend your life on the GW tournament scene you can get by a hell of a lot cheaper if your friends don't mind you proxying with non-GW but WYSIWYG figures.

I shall now turn myself into the Inquisition on a charge of copyright heresy...

[Kirsten]

Using other companies is always good, Rackham in particular do some beautiful models, I made a slaanesh and a nurgle daemon prince out of a couple of their models. By and large however personally I prefer GW's design style to other companies I have seen so far, which does leave me a little scuppered if a race's troops are poor (looking at you high elves) as I cannot find suitable alternatives. If you see an alternative that you like more, go for it. You can't claim they are better though, it is too subjective. GW have cornered the table top market for a good reason. I can understand them not wanting other people's models in their own tournaments, but otherwise there is nothing wrong with it, I bet many GW game designers play other systems too and appreciate the skills involved.

[Aldramelech]

I couldn't agree more Chris, especially since the plastic moulding company Renedra began offering sub-contract mould making and production for independent sculptors at a reasonable cost. So now we have new companies like Mantic Games and Wargames Factory pouring out top class product at prices that must be making GW management scream with despair.

And don't forget our old faithfuls like EM-4. I recently purchased 150 (that is one hundred and fifty folks) plastic 28mm fantasy dwarves in three poses (Big Axe, Spear and Crossbow) for, wait for it, £22.50. Sure they ain't state of the art, but they are honest clean sculpts that take paint very well. Added to the dwarves I got in the Skull Pass box and a few metals I have hanging around and I can field 2,500 points for three-fourths of beggar all.

They also do plastic orcs, and a variety of plastic SF figures for equally silly prices.

So unless you intend to spend your life on the GW tournament scene you can get by a hell of a lot cheaper if your friends don't mind you proxying with non-GW but WYSIWYG figures.

I shall now turn myself into the Inquisition on a charge of copyright heresy...

I also agree with this. Nowt wrong in using non GW, lots to choose from. But that is not Proxing.

I have no problems with other manufactorers as long as the model is what it is supposed to be.