Where do we Draw the Line?

[razcalking]

I'm okay with a player using proxies to try out new units and get a feel for them.

If he decides that this is going to be the long-term setup for his army, however, he should at least change his models to WYSIWYG.

[Aldramelech]

And here we go again with the sweeping generalizations, or am I utterly unique in enjoying and painting my figures to a moderate standard and don't mind if people play proxies. Often people will play proxies to try out troop types they don't yet own before selling a kidney for another GW boxed set.

What really get's my goat though is where a player converts and/or paints figures from other manufacturer's ranges and the GW-Strumtruppen pile in calling the army 'illegal' in friendly play. My current CSM army has figures from three different manufacturers in it as well as a Greater Daemon who started out as a small resin statuette of the Buddha. All the figures are identifiable as what they are supposed to be but I'm not GW-legal... boo-bleedin'-hoo :P

What really gets up my nose is that other companies are starting to think that this is acceptable behaviour.
Battle Front are now as bad if not worse then GW for this. On their forum you cant even mention that fact that there are other manufactorers of 15mm WW2 without being told off. Thats not naming any companies, thats just saying that there are other companies!

Wargaming has always been a mix and match affair. You like some ones infantry but dont like their vehicles, no problem, get some of each. Its always been that way. Now BF behave like they own the copyright to WW2 gaming.

[BuFFo]

It's this same ol' dividing line in gamer groups again. The people who don't lose any enjoyment playing with and against a bunch of coins and flattened beer cans are part of the "I hate/suck at painting and I am rancid with rage that I can be judged on it in a competition" crowd. People who abhor proxies are part of the aesthetically attached, "I joined this hobby for both halves, so for goodness sake make an effort" crowd. I'm part of the latter. The fewer proxies, the better. Where the line is exactly... that's up to you.

When you can form an adult oriented opinion, instead of this teenager angst lash-out, ignorant bias fest, then you can join the big boys in our big boy discussion.

[Nabterayl]

where do we say ok you can only proxy to this point in a pick up game?

Well, as CitizenZero says, we don't draw the line at all. What you need to answer for yourself is where you draw the line. Like Bean and BuFFo, I can still enjoy the game if my opponent is proxying models or even his entire army. Yes, I like Games Workshop's figures, and I like clever conversions - heck, I love that stuff. But I still like playing the game without it.

so wat do you guys do? where is the line?

Well, as I said, you need to decide for yourself. But if you're really just curious where other people's lines are, here's the way I look at it: I want my opponent to have fun. Yes, I want to beat him, but not if he didn't have a good time on the way. If forcing him to play with a list he doesn't want to play with just to avoid him proxying will diminish his fun, I don't want to do that (bearing in mind of course that, as I said, it doesn't prevent me from having fun). I even know some people who like to play the game but not so much that they want to buy an army at all, and I would rather play with a willing opponent than tell him, "No, the price of entry to have fun in this game is several hundred dollars."

[HsojVvad]

The other day my friend and i played a game of 40k. he passed me his army list and i looked it over to see what variation of Chaos SM i would face off against today.

i looked down and saw plague marines and noise marines all over his troop choices. oh i thought to myself, i wonder when he picked those up?

he started taking out his models, first was a squad of khorne bezerkers, the second was another squad of bezerkers, and so on. i asked him if he had gotten those plague and noise marines that were all but over flowing in his list.

"No, why would i? I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys."

Well first off he should have told you that he was using proxies, not very sportsmanship about it, but then again, did you give him time to explain it to you? Maybe he wanted to get everything out of the box and then explain it to you as he was laying them out.

the game came and went and i tabled him with my guard, but afterwards i thought about it more...

Did you not have fun playing the game? What more do you want? I thought the game was to have fun.

i mean sure GW prices are to be honest, more than a little high, and it was just a pick up game but calling a bezerker a plague marine just really didn't sit right with me. sure a flamer as a melta here and there i get or even a special character or something.

Just a little high? Not everyone is made of money to buy everthing WYSIWYG. Also not everyone has time or like to paint and model as well. He did it once, why should he have to do it agian if he dosn't want to? Also why didn't it sit right with you? What is exactly wrong having a Khorn being used as a plague marine?

but your entire army, when you have the models for another and you are just too cheap to but the new ones for your new army list, and just not caring or noticing?

So no you are resluting to name calling. He is cheap is he? Why don't you give him the money to buy plague marines? If you don't, does that make you cheap then?

where do we say ok you can only proxy to this point in a pick up game?

i can understand wanting to try a list once or twice before i go out and buy $100 in new guys but to keep doing it for months and months, even years? come on

Good for you, you can go out and buy $100 worth of stuff and the time to do it. Do you want a cookie or a sticker because you can do that? Oh better yet, what about the person who donates all their money to charity? Does that make you a selfish son of a ***** because the money you give to GW can be better used to feed the poor, the homeless? I bet if we ask the majority of the people, most will call you a geek, nerd or worse. Maybe they will say why are you so effing stupid to spend $100 on minitures when you can go to the dollar store and buy more for less?

so wat do you guys do? where is the line? clearly in tournaments its very black and white, but in everyday games it gets a little grey

In ever day life we have lives. Not everyone who buys a GW product is in the hobby for painting, converting and playing rules. Not everyone loves WYSIWYG. Not everyone is a rules lawyer.

Yes maybe your fun is taken away form your "standards" but you should never ever tell anyone how to do their hobby, or put your standards on them.

If this really upsets you, never play him again, and find people who have your standards then.

Don't call someone cheap because they will not spend money on GW. Can you tell us for a fact that this person has money out of his yinyang, has so much free time in his life and loves to paint and convert. Since you are painting a picture of this guy, I want all the facts, so I can call him cheap as well then and agree with you.

You are very one sided. You have to understand not everyone has the same intrest in the hobby. Since everyone loves quoting the BRB, please show me the page number where it says that anyone who wants to be into the hobby has to pain, has to put minis together, has to be WYSIWYG, hell even has to shower?

I think there is more things in life than worring about proxies.

Here it is, don't play with anyone who dosn't have the same standards as you. I don't want to hear that I can't find any gamers so I am stuck with them. Beggers can't be choosers. You have to be respectfull of your fellow gamer. As soon as someone says, well it's been years you been using Khorn as a plauge bearer you have to change it. If you know this person for years, then buy him plauge bearers then, other wise you are just cheep, because this would have enhanced your gaming experiance and you didn't do anything to make it better.

[Lerra]

Some of my favorite games have been with crazy proxy armies when we are just goofing around with an army that we would never build. One of my favorite beer-and-pretzels scenarios involves building a list for your opponent to play - the goal is to build the worst possible legal army, and then try to make lemonade out of the lemons your opponent gives you. Obviously this involves heavy proxying, as no one in their right mind would buy Aun'va, piles of Grotesques, 9 Death Cult Assassins, hordes of Nurglings, etc. It makes for a fun game because it's impossible take the game very seriously when you've been given a close-combat Tau army led by Aun'Va.

For casual play, I'm fine with almost any level of proxying, although it's helpful if it's clear which unit is what. A friend who is just starting the game has taken to putting taped little pieces of paper on marines saying "Meltagun" so that it's clear what is what. He runs more meltaguns in his squads than come in the box. I'm not going to make him buy a whole extra box for one meltagun. I see that particular case as more of GW's problem than a problem with my friend.

For tournaments, WYSIWYG is standard, although I don't mind proxies that follow WYSIWYG (like a servo-skull that counts-as a sanctioned psyker in a psyker battle squad).

[CitizenZero]

I think there is more things in life than worring about proxies.

This will become my new signature.

[the jeske]

You guys do understand that with counts as being the supported by GW rule one could use stones on bases and the list would still be legal.

[lobster-overlord]

You guys do understand that with counts as being the supported by GW rule one could use stones on bases and the list would still be legal.

Only if those stones were sold to you in a bag marked "Citadel" or "Games Workshop." They still like to enforce the "gotta buy it from us, or make it from one of ours" rule in some situations.

John M.

[Cossack]

How about "You win. Can we play for fun now?"

Just point 'em up the way they look and play them that way.