Where do we Draw the Line?

[Kirsten]

I can see both sides with proxies, I don't believe things should be GW models only, if other companies make models you like more, go for it. It is better I think if they are easy to explain, and if they are roughly the same size, different bases for example could make the game harder/easier. Personally I have seen some great dreadknight models somewhere I intend to use for blood knights, if I can find them again. On the other hand I did once play a chaos player whose knights were eldar jetbikes, flamers were assault marines, and a dreadnought was a greater daemon. The guy wasn't a new player, had used these proxies for 18 months and just didn't want to bother buying any models. But I think what bothered me about it was his attitude as much as anything, if he felt he was losing, he would simply remove all his models from the table "the army has committed ritual suicide". Annoying.

And Aldramelech, fix the rest of the post you edited.

[Bean]

What he is clearly saying is that the person has deliberately used proxies to make cheating easier, and therefore is willing to win at any cost. So if he says "Fine you win, can we play for fun now?" he is in fact being sarcastic.

No, actually. Again, you are just flatly incorrect. Neither Cossack (the poster to whom the Jeske responded) nor the OP ever mentioned or alluded to cheating at all. You pretty much just fabricated this out of whole cloth.

I await your overly long winded reply in an attempt to dig yourself out of the Stupid hole.

No need. When my "opponent" in a debate is just rambling about things he's imagined, hurling insults, and not actually addressing any of the issues in question, there's really no point to to continuing. Have a nice day.

[Aldramelech]

No, actually. Again, you are just flatly incorrect. Neither Cossack (the poster to whom the Jeske responded) nor the OP ever mentioned or alluded to cheating at all. You pretty much just fabricated this out of whole cloth.




No need. When my "opponent" in a debate is just rambling about things he's imagined, hurling insults, and not actually addressing any of the issues in question, there's really no point to to continuing. Have a nice day.

Or you could just run off and tell a moderator

[eldargal]

With proxies it is all about intent. If someone is using a different army to test whether they like it, fine. If they have an extensive 'counts as; army (FSM, weird xenos, Raging Midgets etc) that is fine. If someone is using SM as Eldar because they don't want to buy a new army, that is not fine. I'm all for encouraging diveristy within the hobby, scratchbuilds, extensive conversions, counts as etc.

[Bean]

Or you could just run off and tell a moderator

I generally feel that's a poor recourse, but if you're honestly suggesting that I should report your post, in this case, I'll consider it.

[HsojVvad]

With proxies it is all about intent. If someone is using a different army to test whether they like it, fine. If they have an extensive 'counts as; army (FSM, weird xenos, Raging Midgets etc) that is fine. If someone is using SM as Eldar because they don't want to buy a new army, that is not fine. I'm all for encouraging diveristy within the hobby, scratchbuilds, extensive conversions, counts as etc.

I respect you very much. The part I don't agree with your statement of not wanting to buy a new army. Why is that? When someone says if you want to play a new army you have to buy a new army. That statement is so egotistical and saying it's wrong you shouldn't do that because you wouldn't do that, is making you to be better than someone else.

I am not shure if that is your intent, but if I spent a $1000 on GW products only ( I know stupid of me not buying else where) and now I lost my job and have to provide for my family so have no extra money now, and I might want to play something different but I can't afford it, or choose not to spend the money on it because I spent enough money already, that I am tired of playing SM I want to play Eldar now, and I can't because my minis are not Eldar? Are you really serious?

That is a pretty Eliteist attitude. After all we are playing with plastic toy minitures.

You know how foolish that really sounds? We are playing with pieces of over priced plastic, and it's ok to play with a piece of plastic is being represtented as a Space Marine. So it's ok for a piece of plastic to be a SM but it's not ok for that same piece of plastic to be an Eldar, or an Ork or what ever?

Wow. Just Wow. I don't know what else to say now. Grown people telling other gronw people how to play a game or hobby even when the company themselves encourage 'Counts As'.

I really hope this is not how you think. For if it is, I have lost all respect for you and anyone who thinks like you.

It's one thing if you don't want to play agaisnt someone who plays Eldar and is using Space Marines, but it's another to tell that person he has to buy Eldar Minis to play Eldar.

Again, if you don't like playing anyone using proxies, be it for a short time, or for ever, then don't play that person. But please do not tell that person how he should be playing the game, or the "hobby" as people like to say.

It's like collecting hockey cards. If a person buys hockey cards and likes to toss them around, then so be it. You have no right to tell him that he can't do that, because they cost so much money. If that is what he wants so be it, you don't have to trade with him then.

Same as gaming. If the person wants to use SM for Eldar, so be it, you don't have to play him, but you have no right to tell him he can't do it. Basically who is anyone telling someone what he can't and can do in his hobby?

I would love for this convertaion to be done in a public street, not on the interent. This way all the people walking about can see of what we are really arguing about. Just imagine the looks of these people, looking at us arguing over a piece of over priced plastic saying that if it's a SM or an Eldar when to that person it just looks like a plastic doll and why on earth we would be playing with in in the first place.

And we wonder why we are called, geeks or nerds or loosers for playing with overprice plastic toy soldiers.

[HsojVvad]

I just noticed my sig. I have copied this from someone else, I forget who now, but he is correct. We buy everthing 100% GW and GW even says do what ever we want. So if it's good enough for GW that we do what ever we want with our 100% GW stuff, then it should be good enough with us.

[Aldramelech]

I generally feel that's a poor recourse, but if you're honestly suggesting that I should report your post, in this case, I'll consider it.

You knock yourself out mate.

[Bean]

You knock yourself out mate.

How is it that you've become convinced that I want to report you? Don't you think that if I did want to report you, I'd have done it already?

[Aldramelech]

I can see both sides with proxies, I don't believe things should be GW models only, if other companies make models you like more, go for it. It is better I think if they are easy to explain, and if they are roughly the same size, different bases for example could make the game harder/easier. Personally I have seen some great dreadknight models somewhere I intend to use for blood knights, if I can find them again. On the other hand I did once play a chaos player whose knights were eldar jetbikes, flamers were assault marines, and a dreadnought was a greater daemon. The guy wasn't a new player, had used these proxies for 18 months and just didn't want to bother buying any models. But I think what bothered me about it was his attitude as much as anything, if he felt he was losing, he would simply remove all his models from the table "the army has committed ritual suicide". Annoying.

And Aldramelech, fix the rest of the post you edited.

What?