All-gun builds (Empire / Dwarves)

[Melissia]

So... do you think all-gunner builds are more/less viable in 8th edition? Basically thinking Handgunners/Thunderers with Mortars and Cannons as support, with a hero/lord focusing on leadership and dispelling.

These were the two armies I really wanted to play, more than any other, but really haven't had much of a reason to get into it until now. I know that you can fire two ranks now, so it seems like they got a buff, but I'd like an overall picture.

[Aenir]

I think they become more viable up to a point.

With the larger blocks coming, you can still only hit them with soo many shots before they are on you and cutting your troops down. They are also for the most part move or fire which also limits your manuverability. However they are strong, and decently ranged, which could come into play (I cant recall their stats off the top of my head)

EDIT: I would say go with Empire, they have just that bit more moveability so you can deal with quick threats that much easier

[Melissia]

Maybe a few cheap free company detachments to absorb the charge?

[Melissia]

Something like this... not quite "all-handgunner", but it should at least be adaptable.

Total: 750 Pts
Hero:
Battle Wizard w/2x Dispel Scrolls
Core:
Handgunners w/Full HQ
-- 22 Handgunners
-- Marksman w/Repeater Handgun
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company
Handgunners w/Full HQ
-- 21 Handgunners
-- Marksman w/Repeater Handgun
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company


C = Free Company
H = Handgunner
W = Wizard

CCCCC CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHCCCCC
CCCCCHHHHHWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHCCCCC

Edit: Actually the ones in front should be archers now that I think of it... archers counting as skirmishers and therefor you can shoot through them-- or is that not part of eighth edition?

[Aenir]

Slight flaw in that you can only have 1 scroll (this is an 8th ed list right?)

Perhaps instead of free company, Spearmen for the extra rank of attacks which should beef them up a bit more.

That or perhaps halbierds for str or Swordsmen for the extra ward save

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Hero:
Battle Wizard w/2x Dispel Scrolls

Aren't dispel scrolls 0-1 now? I think I read that on warseer.

I hope so. I really hate scroll spam...

[Old_Paladin]

I know you like the idea of handguns; but I think crossbows are likely to be a bit better.
There are a few reasons for this. Mostly it comes down to range (and cost with dwarves); with premeasuring everything a lot of armies will be able to avoid handguns now.

In the newest podcast of Podhammer, the Wood Elf player was able to sit outside the 24" range of the Emipres handguns, fire volley shots with his elven archers, and used his fast cav with increased movement banner to spend a turn to move out of line of fire (as handguns are move or shoot, wheeling didn't help), then charge next move. The handgunners didn't even get off a shot.

I'd try to have some detachments as halbards (strength 4 in two ranks is pretty solid for normal humans); also, if you can move the points around try to make the detachments 15 (right now, if they suffer a single casualty they won't break ranks when flanking).

As to a skirmish unit... it's true line of sight now, so you should be able to see through them (they might give a cover modifier, I don't know).

[WereWolf_nr]

Dwarf shooting can do some serious damage if you pick your targets correctly. Their foil tends to be that Empire can field about 2x as many guns (granted they are less accurate) supported by knights if you so wish. They end up doing better than dwarfs because of their flexibility.

For a little extra range you can use crossbowmen, however your expected kills will go down with 5+ saves (or better).

A quick number crunch for Empire gave me 33.5 kills / 100 shots for gun and 27.8 kills / 100 shots with crossbow against T3 5+ save with no to-hit penalties. Dwarfs are about 50% higher for guns due to their better BS and guns.

[Aldramelech]

Dwarfs dont have a better BS. Both Humans and Dwarfs are BS 3.

[WereWolf_nr]

My bad, I messed up the +1 hit on the rifle with a better BS. It will throw the numbers off for the Dwarfs vs Empire paragraph.