All-gun builds (Empire / Dwarves)

[Melissia]

Quick question about Detachments... can your unit fire through its own detachments in eighth edition? Or is that restricted to skirmishers?

Having a line of cheap free company to protect against the initial charge that you could still fire through would be cool. Archers are notably more expensive than that though.

[kallistosprom]

if they can see their target they can fire at their target. It's all LOS now

[Melissia]

I was referring to firing through your own troops.

[ZenPaladin]

Ok! So can you fire though your own troups or detachments? That's a maybe.. you see its true line of sight and there is not special rule allowing it in the Empire book.

If you have one unit backed up to another i'm going to say no.. because it's silly if the handgunners have their guns pointed directly into the back's of another unit.

Also! They do suffer a -1 for shooting through other units friend or foe! So.. -1 long range, -1 through cover = 6's to hit!

As others have pointed out the range leaves something to be desired as well. Wood elven units with long bows out range them and move freely through tree templates.. the templates provide.. COVER! So.. if someone with Longbows... Britonians, Wood Elves, HighElves.. decides to out shoot you? Well they probbily can.

Now! Your cheep artillery can make a differance! if you can protect it from flying harrasers.. and infiltrators and guys who charge sick amounts of distance. In Fantasy you don't kill a unit then hang.. if your speed bump units are not beefy enough to survive the charge they can be overrun and the unit that did the overunning can go straight on into what ever units are behind them.

So watch out for tough heavily armored killer knight units who can slaughter your small units whole sale. Say chosen chaos knights of Khorn who could put out 15+ wounds easy....with just one rank attacking.

[Melissia]

Yes, that's what I was asking for. And have the rules for skirmishers changed?

[ZenPaladin]

Indeed! Once apon a time you could snake out skirmishers and blob them up and general move them like 40K units... but no longer. Now skirmishers have an odd loose block formation that they are required to assume. One inch between each moddle forming something that looks not unlike a checker board fromt he diagram that I saw.

Shooting at skirmishers is negative one to hit.. there may be other rules as well... its possible that you don't suffer penalties for shooting through them.

I know for sure they don't have rank bonuses. Which means they are never stubborn which means they fold like cards when hit by a reall unit.

This is the big dang block of infantry edition. Huge units of handgunners were what was preposed in the article earlier. That large ranked unit of handgunners might become stubborn if its deep enough. And could be made wide enough to be a horde.

But honestly? With short range being 12 inches.. and armies charging 2d6 + 4 or more. (3d6 + 7 for cav?) I'm verry weary of the black powder army.

[Melissia]

Then put a detachment of archers up front to absorb the initial charge. They don't need to be stubborn, and it doesn't matter if they're destroyed or routed.

[ZenPaladin]

I think your immagining that when that detachment is destoryed that the oposing unit will stand there and be shot again but thats not the case.

When your front unit is routed.. the enemy will persue. Normaly another 2d6 inches. Which means that unless your handguners are over 12 inches away they may be persued into.. and the enemy unit will never suffer a shooting round from you.

Your gambling that they won't make contact with the unit behind the archers and its risky bussiness.

Lets try a 30 man unit of Handgunners vs a 10 man unit of Chaos knights.

30 shots. 5/6 hit for long range. long range = 24 inches.
7 hits, 4 wounds, 1 un-saved on the 3+
Chaos Knights march 14 Inches. Next round they chage.
You shoot again.
15 hits, 7 wounds 2 unsaved wounds on the 3+
7 knights remain they charge you stand and shoot.
Hitting on 6, 5 hits, 2 wounds probbily no kills.
They strike first in melee.
14 attacks, 9 wounds on the 3+, 9 kills you get no save.
you hit back.. but you can't hurt their 1+ arrmor save.

At that point youve efectively lost that particularfight.

If you put a unit in front its possible that you will loose that second round of shooting all together.

Now I'm not going to tell you that Black Powder is useless. I'm just saying don't think that shooting in an extra rank is all that. Charge ranges have increased and projectile ranges havent.

[Melissia]

Err, handguns have armor piercing, right?

So what is armor piercing in eighth?

[ZenPaladin]

Just a negative one. Its -1 to armor for 4 strength, -1 for armor piercing. Total of -2 vs their 1+ save. Though to be fair.. its not like your only going to be fighting chaos knights.

There are less tough cavalry you can do better against. And tougher ones/faster ones that you might do worse aginst.