How do you beat Orks in close combat?

[BuFFo]

Classic idea.

I would do this

[oni]

You need to assault them before they assault you. This will negate their Furious Charge and in a mob of ten or twenty boyz, that's a ton of dice you're instantly taking away. Next, try to use terrain to your advantage. It will be very hard, but try to bottle neck the Orks so that you're maximizing the amount of attacks that you get while minimizing the amount the Orks get. Most importantly, play the mission.

[Nabterayl]

Still, if you're going to play Genestealer rush armies, you need to tag-team to take down these big squads. Smash into them with a hefty amount of Genestealers, and eliminate them quickly.

As an ork player with a fondness for infantry myself, I definitely second this, and it's one of the things my opponents have had a hard time wrapping their minds around. Point-for-point, yes, a boy is a much better buy than a genestealer. But you don't actually play the game point-for-point, or you shouldn't, at least.

Orks, in my experience, work best when their opponents muck about with them? What do I mean by that? Let me give you an example:

Consider, for instance, twelve genestealers with scything talons and feeder tendrils from the tyranid codex, for a cost of 252 points. Pit them against 30 slugga boyz with a power klaw nob, for 220 points. On the charge (definitely second the sentiment that you never, ever let orks charge you), those genestealers will receive 48 attacks. On average over time, 8/9 of those will hit, 1/3 of them will wound with a 5/6 chance to bypass the orks' save, and 1/6 of them will Rend. That's an expected kill total of 18.96 boyz. The returning 30 boy attacks and 3 power klaw attacks have an expected kill value on average over time of 4.58 genestealers.

You just lost 4-5 genestealers to kill 19 boyz. You iz mukkin' about!

Add just seven more genestealers, and on average over time you've wiped out 30 boyz without taking a single casualty. You iz rokkin'!

But wait, you say. Didn't those 19 genestealers cost 399 points to kill just 220 points of boyz? Isn't that bad list construction?

In my opinion, no. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that you just killed 220 points of boyz in return for losing zero points of genestealers. If you insist on worrying about "earning your points back," then the question you should be asking is how many more boyz those 19 genestealers can kill before they're put down. And if you can wipe out 30-boy blocks without taking any casualties in return, the answer is a huge amount of boyz.

The second is that people tend to do their theoryhammer on a featureless battlefield where every unit can be approximated by a single point, and with orks in particular that is very not true. Large blocks of boyz take up space on the battlefield - space which other blocks of boyz have to traverse in order to reach you. As an example, I normally run 20-ork boyz in a 5x4 rectangle with a 1" interval, meaning 20 orks takes up a 10"x8" area of battlefield. Hit a block of orks from the front, and it's fairly easy for the next unit in a battle line to reach you through an oblique march. Hit that same block of orks on the flank, punch it out in a single charge, and consolidate back, and it's very difficult for the next unit in line to reach you. Of course, the boyz could clump up to prevent this, but if they do that, you can and should punish them with blast weapons.

If you really want to run a genestealer cult list, and not a counts-as orks list or a counts-as tyranid list, then I realize that you can't precisely replicate the above tactic. But you'd have a hard time precisely replicating the above tactic even with a tyranid list, because real battlefields rarely work out that way. The point, though, is that with the Initiative advantage you can punch out an entire unit of boyz in a single turn if you don't play fair with them (and should look through whatever codex you ultimately use for ways to do so), and the nature of orky formations gives you opportunities to do so without fear of counter-charge.

[superwizard]

Wow! Thank you all so much for all your swift and very educational responses!

I am using the Bell of Lost Soul's Genestealer Cult codex which you can download for free here:
[url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/07/bols-mini-dex-downloads-archive.html[/url]
I am using this codex because personally I prefer to use a 'legitimate' army with its own rules rather than a counts-as army. Please do take a look at it, it is very comprehensive and only just over 1mb big.

I am now rethinking my tactics and planning to include more flamers and heavy weapons. The problem with Genestealers in this codex is that although in every other respect they are the same as those in the Tyranid codex, because of their rarity in a cult they are an 'Elite' choice, can only form squads of 3-6 and only have the 'Scuttlers' and 'Extended Carapace' biomorphs available to them. That means I can still field up to 24 of them as another 6 can can form a bodyguard for the Patriarch. Will 24 Genestealers be much use in your opinions? The alternative is squads of 4-8 hybrids who can field up to 2 flamers, 2 autocannons or 2 missile launchers. Do you think these small special weapons squads would be more effective against Orks?

As for monstrous creatures, I can take Hybrid Monstrosities for 110 points with the following profile:
WS___BS___S___T___W___I___A___LD___Sv
5_____0____6___6___4____3__4___10___4+

[Emperorsmercy]

I use Heavy fire to soften up the squads, then send in big stuff or Bezerkers to kill them. Though you can't use bezerkers, genestealers could be used to that effect.

[Aldramelech]

If you think you've got it bad try playing IG against them. If you dont stop them with firepower you've had it.

[Tarion]

As an ork player with a fondness for infantry myself, I definitely second this, and it's one of the things my opponents have had a hard time wrapping their minds around. Point-for-point, yes, a boy is a much better buy than a genestealer. But you don't actually play the game point-for-point, or you shouldn't, at least.

Orks, in my experience, work best when their opponents muck about with them? What do I mean by that? Let me give you an example:

Consider, for instance, twelve genestealers with scything talons and feeder tendrils from the tyranid codex, for a cost of 252 points. Pit them against 30 slugga boyz with a power klaw nob, for 220 points. On the charge (definitely second the sentiment that you never, ever let orks charge you), those genestealers will receive 48 attacks. On average over time, 8/9 of those will hit, 1/3 of them will wound with a 5/6 chance to bypass the orks' save, and 1/6 of them will Rend. That's an expected kill total of 18.96 boyz. The returning 30 boy attacks and 3 power klaw attacks have an expected kill value on average over time of 4.58 genestealers.

You just lost 4-5 genestealers to kill 19 boyz. You iz mukkin' about!

Add just seven more genestealers, and on average over time you've wiped out 30 boyz without taking a single casualty. You iz rokkin'!

But wait, you say. Didn't those 19 genestealers cost 399 points to kill just 220 points of boyz? Isn't that bad list construction?

In my opinion, no. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that you just killed 220 points of boyz in return for losing zero points of genestealers. If you insist on worrying about "earning your points back," then the question you should be asking is how many more boyz those 19 genestealers can kill before they're put down. And if you can wipe out 30-boy blocks without taking any casualties in return, the answer is a huge amount of boyz.

The second is that people tend to do their theoryhammer on a featureless battlefield where every unit can be approximated by a single point, and with orks in particular that is very not true. Large blocks of boyz take up space on the battlefield - space which other blocks of boyz have to traverse in order to reach you. As an example, I normally run 20-ork boyz in a 5x4 rectangle with a 1" interval, meaning 20 orks takes up a 10"x8" area of battlefield. Hit a block of orks from the front, and it's fairly easy for the next unit in a battle line to reach you through an oblique march. Hit that same block of orks on the flank, punch it out in a single charge, and consolidate back, and it's very difficult for the next unit in line to reach you. Of course, the boyz could clump up to prevent this, but if they do that, you can and should punish them with blast weapons.

If you really want to run a genestealer cult list, and not a counts-as orks list or a counts-as tyranid list, then I realize that you can't precisely replicate the above tactic. But you'd have a hard time precisely replicating the above tactic even with a tyranid list, because real battlefields rarely work out that way. The point, though, is that with the Initiative advantage you can punch out an entire unit of boyz in a single turn if you don't play fair with them (and should look through whatever codex you ultimately use for ways to do so), and the nature of orky formations gives you opportunities to do so without fear of counter-charge.

Something to consider - Massive multi-charges could be interested. Thinking about it - If you can link most of the squads together with a big combat, you can force dozens of No Retreat wounds, which would be interesting to see. It works as a massive force-multiplier, as each squad takes wounds based on how well you win combat.

[Nabterayl]

Wow! Thank you all so much for all your swift and very educational responses!

I am using the Bell of Lost Soul's Genestealer Cult codex which you can download for free here:
[url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/07/bols-mini-dex-downloads-archive.html[/url]
I am using this codex because personally I prefer to use a 'legitimate' army with its own rules rather than a counts-as army. Please do take a look at it, it is very comprehensive and only just over 1mb big.

I am now rethinking my tactics and planning to include more flamers and heavy weapons. The problem with Genestealers in this codex is that although in every other respect they are the same as those in the Tyranid codex, because of their rarity in a cult they are an 'Elite' choice, can only form squads of 3-6 and only have the 'Scuttlers' and 'Extended Carapace' biomorphs available to them. That means I can still field up to 24 of them as another 6 can can form a bodyguard for the Patriarch. Will 24 Genestealers be much use in your opinions? The alternative is squads of 4-8 hybrids who can field up to 2 flamers, 2 autocannons or 2 missile launchers. Do you think these small special weapons squads would be more effective against Orks?

As for monstrous creatures, I can take Hybrid Monstrosities for 110 points with the following profile:
WS___BS___S___T___W___I___A___LD___Sv
5_____0____6___6___4____3__4___10___4+

I've never played against the genestealer cult codex, so this is all theoretical, but here's my first-impression thoughts:

Genestealers, if run in serious numbers, give you the capability to quickly hand decisive defeats to ork boyz (especially if you can find a way for them to hijack some brood trucks from other units). I don't see anything else in the codex that does that. Flamers are good against orks, but flamers alone cannot punch out an entire full-strength mob the way a sufficient number of genestealers can (well, okay, something like eight to ten flamers in conjunction can), and even a half-strength mob of orks would be a serious threat to a hybrid brood.

Without knowing how your ork opponents tend to compose their forces, I can't recommend taking no hybrid broods. Autocannons, for instance, are a good weapon for punching out all ork vehicles except for battlewagons, so you very well might want a hybrid brood or two if your opponent uses those in numbers.

On the other hand, the entire heavy support section of the codex except for the hybrid monstrosity also offers good anti-ork-vehicle capability, so you could use your elites slots to handle the boyz and the heavy support to deal with vehicles. And I'd definitely recommend a Leman Russ to punish your opponent for clumping up. A dispersed boyz mob has fairly little to fear from a Leman Russ, but a dispersed boyz mob is much easier to outmaneuver, particularly if the nob is not deployed at the center of the mob, and I think it will serve you in good stead to force the enemy to choose.

The hybrid monstrosity is not a bad buy, and if you face battlewagons on a regular basis I'd consider taking some, because this codex needs to assault a battlewagon to have any reasonable chance of stopping one. Keep in mind, though, that assaulting ork vehicles is harder than it seems, since very few of them have any incentive to move slowly. Even a monstrous creature attacking AV10 has difficulty stopping a vehicle when it hits on a 6+. Hybrid monstrosities also seem to me like a good way to keep your opponent's meganobz honest - meganobz are an excellent ork answer to horde infantry, so if I knew I were facing a genestealer cult list, I'd probably include a unit or two.

Since it sounds like you have access to the ork codex, take another look through it and focus on the things that aren't boyz, because if you build your entire list around taking out huge blocks of boyz, you're likely to get sucker-punched by some of the orks' other options. Killa kanz with grotzookaz, for instance, are so cheap that you can fit them into a list almost incidentally, have fabulous guns, and require specialized equipment to kill in CC (meaning an ork player can throw a killa kan into a unit of regular infantry and, if that unit doesn't have a way to kill walkers in CC, disable that unit for the entire game for the use of only a 45-point model). I've already mentioned meganobz, and the orks' vehicles. And of course there's regular nob squads, in transports or on bikes. I've said it before, but it's doubly true when it comes to any kind of nobz - you do not muck around with them. Treat them like you would a monstrous creature or a battle tank. Pile on the genestealers, pile on the krak missiles and battle cannon shells. High-volume small arms fire is not the way to go.

The strength of the ork boy is not just in the close combat prowess you can buy for very few points. The strength of the ork boy is that the solution to him is rarely the solution to other parts of the ork codex, such as nobz, fast vehicles, battlewagons, and kanz, and the boy's low cost allows an ork player to avail himself of both the boyz and these other elements. The ork codex makes it relatively easy to present the enemy with lots of different types of threats, which makes it that much easier for an ork player to retain the initiative. If you can find a way to quickly and efficiently punch out the boyz in your opponent's army you simplify the equation. I think genestealers, even in the genestealer cult codex, offer you that capability, and they also have the virtue of being able to overwhelm all types of nobz in sufficient numbers (a capability that flamers decidedly do not have).

Don't forget to look and plan for the non-boy threats in your opponent's army, though. They'll be there.

[Zombie Savant]

Just as an interesting excercise:

Point for point, Imperial Guardsmen with Furious Charge (on the charge) from someone like Straken will tie an ork mob (of equal point value). That kind of cooks a man's noodle! 30 guard (only 150 points!) will kill 15 orks before they get attacked back, and their slightly better armor should actually make them win the combat more often than not (You should save about 5 wounds, where the ork player will only save ~ 2).

[BlacknightIII]

Conscripts with a commisar lord near them tie up ork mobs for a long time specially if you kept the orks from charging. Send in the next wave ftw! This really only works for games with objectives, if you doing kill points i wouldnt suggest this.