Question to all about Scenario Building

[RedScorpionsGirl]

Ok, I am looking for a bit of advice... Hoping ya'll might be up for it, soo here's the background on this. I will not use any names on this one, but I will explain it in detail for you.

The LGS has a new TO. Said TO (I'm going to call him "Y") decided to build the scenarios for the tournament. While I initially thought it was kind of neat, that he took the time to do this, I was a bit curious of how he chose to do them, so I asked him a few questions, the following:

Q1. Are these completely built by you, or are they modified scenarios, or both?
A1. Mostly from scratch, some modified older scenarios.

ok, cool..he's being creative..

Q2. Are you playtesting them?
A2. Yes. Y and X are testing them out.

Q3. The same ones you normally use (X normally being in the tournament, while Y runs it)?
A3. Well yes.

Q4. Do you guys have any other armies you are using to test these scenarios?
A4. No, Y states he only has Imperial Guard and that X only uses his Space Wolves.

Q5. So are you guys having anyone else test these scenarios to make sure they work out for use in the tournament?
A5. No, we wrote them and believe they're just fine.

Q6. Why aren't you having others playtest them with various armies to make sure the mechanics you use work properly for others?
A6. We don't want the scenarios going out, and people building their lists specifically tailored to them.

(Insert note here: We don't ordinarily have this problem)

Q7. (after he describes one of the scenarios to me) So this scenario seems like it really favors horde armies, such as guard, and specific Tyranid builds. Have you asked any of the locals that play something that's not a horde to try this out, say, Regular Marines, Eldar, Daemonhunter, Witchhunter...etc? It sounds a bit favoured to someone with large numbers. You could get someone that doesn't play in the tournament to try it out and give you an opinion.
A7. No, we don't want the scenarios "leaked" so people build to win them. (I then commented again about someone who doesn't play in the tournaments, and he kind of gave me a dumb look) Also, I'm trying to encourage "take all on" army builds, or themed armies. I would like to see more themed and friendly tournaments than this cutthroat attitude we have right now.

Q7a. But you do realize by not testing these, you don't know how they will work with themed armies do you? For example, your "Hold a 12" circle in the centre of the table for 10 points, and two smaller areas are worth 5pts each scenario. How well would you say this works with Deathwing, Ravenwing, Dark Eldar, or other types of armies that are not hoard based?

A7a. *Insert dumbfounded look here* I don't know, I've never played those armies, and neither has "X". Some armies are just not tournament armies, period..So why would you bring one of those?

Q8. So you're telling me that X, who is helping you playtest the scenarios, that you're not letting anyone else that participates in the tournament see, is playing in the tournament as well?
A8. Yes, so..?

Q9. Don't you find that a bit unfair?
A9. No, not really.

Q10. So you're saying that you don't want people to have a heads up to the scenarios, but it's perfectly acceptable for X to have playtested them, with the army he normally plays in the tournament?
A10. Yea, I don't see a problem with that.

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A few other notes about this:

- Tournament entry has dropped almost 70% since he took over.
- He is taking 20% of entry fee to "run" the tournament.
- There is no "FAQ" as far as in store rulings. They are inconsistent from tourney to tourney.
- He stops the tourney to have a "Democratic vote" when a rule question comes up. (even though they are timed games)
- Very lax about putting tournament information up for others to see. Last tournament, there were 6 people in attendance. Here's how the awards went (mind you, I saw the end of the tourney, but had predicted "X" to win it the night before):

1st. "X"
2nd. "F"
3rd. "R"
Best Painted: "X"

There were "2" entrants into the best painted judging. Also, nobody had an actual fully painted army, so I'm not sure why best painted was involved in the first place. "Y" judged it.
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After the tournament, 2 of the older gentlemen that have been regulars for the past 8 or so years commented that they have had enough of this, and it's gotten to the point they don't even want to drive down to play...That was what really disconcerted me on this.

Any suggestions on this? The TO doesn't seem to understand it at all, and the store owners aren't 40k players, so it's a bit harder to explain some of it to them.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

In my line of work facts and data that prove something count for most of the argument if not all of it.

If you have data that you can back up about tournament attendance trends based on the old TO and the new TO and any loss of customers and you can prove it to the store owners and correlate it to the TO; the store owners may listen to you and ask the TO to modify his practices. That is, if they care about their customers and their bottom line.

[Commissar Lewis]

Suggestions? Well I'm stumped as he seems to be somewhat ignorant. I mean, a good rule of thumb when making tourney scenarios would be to playtest it with various armies. Because if X only had Guard, he could have just used his Guard models as another army for the sake of playtesting.

Plus, it seemed like he almost wanted X to win and thus gave him a number of advantages by him being the only one to see the scenarios. I dunno, this seems like you guys have a subpar TO. My suggestion would be to try and replace him ASAP.

[Gotthammer]

I'm trying to encourage "take all on" army builds, or themed armies.

Some armies are just not tournament armies, period..So why would you bring one of those?

Yeeeeahhhh Mr X... you do that...


I'm with DAH - point out to the owners in simple terms the problems - he's designing scenarios that don't allow for even competiton, there's poor communication with the players (lack of FAQs), and this is causing the games to become unbalanced, unfair and unfun (stopping play for votes etc).

Try not to bring up the personal relation with Y playtesting and winning awards, it could just make you seem jealous / bitter. Also avoid any personal stuff - just stick to how the way it is being implimented is driving people away from teh tourney and the store.

[Chris Copeland]

I don't have a problem with what the TO is doing. Props to him for taking the time to do it. My suggestion is play or don't play and have fun either way... if you'd do it differently then volunteer to run the next event. Nothing is ever going to be completely fair or balanced in anything other than a chess tourney...

Go with it and have a good time... or don't... either way be thankful you have someone making an effort at your Local Game Store.... just my two cents...

Cheers... Chris

[MajorSoB]

Interesting thread!

It seems your problem is similar to one I am experiencing, but from the other side of the mirror. I am currently working on scenarios for our upcoming GT on the independent circuit. Not to take the TO's side but running a tourney is hell since going into it you have to accept that you cannot please everyone no matter how hard you try. That being said, the TO better try to please a vast majority of players for it to be successful. Drops in participation of 70% is not an indication of success.

Currently I and other members of our club are writing potential scenarios to be used at our event in the fall. Playing missions out of the book gets old and caters to certain armies. I strongly believe that scenarios can influence army builds more than any other factor. I also believe its OK to have a scenario that may give a slight advantage to one style army as long as you balance it with a scenario that works in reverse.

I have a few questions:

-Can players submit scenarios to be reviewed or are the generated solely by the TO?
-Can you volunteer to play test scenarios?
-Does the TO play 40K? Does he/she play well?
-Are the people testing the missions his homeboys? ( If so this reeks of home cooking!)
-Is the TO taking a cut to pay and employee to supervise or is he taking "profit"?
-Is he getting GW prizes support or publicity?
-Is the TO the store owner or some random lackey? Can you volunteer to run events as well?
-Is the TO receptive to discussion or is he a "my way or the highway" guy?
-Are there other alternatives for gaming in your area?
-What area are you located in and when is your next event?

Please give us some more details, thanks?

[Warptiger]

Talking to the TO won't work... he's obviously sniffing his own fumes.

Drops in attendance probably won't mean much to him at all... in his mind, everything is perfect, so problems obviously lie with everyone else. ie, the people who stop coming can't handle it, they're lame players, they suck, etc.

Probably as long as his friends keep showing up for the events, he'll keep holding them. Even if it's just him and his friends.

It sounds like you'd have a better chance of starting your own tournament, then changing this person's mind. Does he have an exclusive arrangement with the store?

[Hyperion]

Basically, what's happened here is you walked into a Kafka novel by mistake. Back away slowly.

[RedScorpionsGirl]

Interesting thread!

It seems your problem is similar to one I am experiencing, but from the other side of the mirror. I am currently working on scenarios for our upcoming GT on the independent circuit. Not to take the TO's side but running a tourney is hell since going into it you have to accept that you cannot please everyone no matter how hard you try. That being said, the TO better try to please a vast majority of players for it to be successful. Drops in participation of 70% is not an indication of success.

Currently I and other members of our club are writing potential scenarios to be used at our event in the fall. Playing missions out of the book gets old and caters to certain armies. I strongly believe that scenarios can influence army builds more than any other factor. I also believe its OK to have a scenario that may give a slight advantage to one style army as long as you balance it with a scenario that works in reverse.

I have a few questions:

-Can players submit scenarios to be reviewed or are the generated solely by the TO?
-Can you volunteer to play test scenarios?
-Does the TO play 40K? Does he/she play well?
-Are the people testing the missions his homeboys? ( If so this reeks of home cooking!)
-Is the TO taking a cut to pay and employee to supervise or is he taking "profit"?
-Is he getting GW prizes support or publicity?
-Is the TO the store owner or some random lackey? Can you volunteer to run events as well?
-Is the TO receptive to discussion or is he a "my way or the highway" guy?
-Are there other alternatives for gaming in your area?
-What area are you located in and when is your next event?

Please give us some more details, thanks?

-Can players submit scenarios to be reviewed or are the generated solely by the TO?
Nope, only his creation.

-Can you volunteer to play test scenarios?
Offered to, even suggested contacting a couple of groups that are on the west coast to see if they'd be up for it, so it wasn't even tested around here.

-Does the TO play 40K? Does he/she play well?
When he chooses to play, he likes to play his tournament list all the time, and when people ask for a friendly game, he then creams them within first turn, with the comment, oh yea, that was a tourney list, I've gotta keep practising for the tourney. Also, when he played in the tourneys, he would walk around, look at everyone's lists, then open his binder of lists and choose one.

-Are the people testing the missions his homeboys? ( If so this reeks of home cooking!)
Yes. Only person testing the missions is his best friend, who also plays in the tourney, using same list he playtests with.

-Is the TO taking a cut to pay and employee to supervise or is he taking "profit"?
He is not a store employee, and his statement was he was getting the 20% to run it because everyone pitched fit when he played in it as well as ran it, and the standings went : 1st. Him. 2nd. His best friend.

-Is he getting GW prizes support or publicity?
No prize support what so ever. Previous manner had been 100% in 100% out for entry fee.

-Is the TO the store owner or some random lackey? Can you volunteer to run events as well?
Random Lackey. Store owner wants consistency, and him and his buddy started running it together, but once the previously mentioned matter occurred, it went down to him running it. Nobody is happy with it, but they are just complaining amongst themselves, trying to figure out how to bring it up to the store owner appropriately (that's why I asked for advice here)

-Is the TO receptive to discussion or is he a "my way or the highway" guy?
People have offered loads of suggestions. Previous TO even talked to him. He gave kind of a dumb look when some of the problems were mentioned, and didn't understand "why". Sad part is, this was during the point in which the playtesting was mentioned, and balanced scenario building. Probably upwards of 8-10 different people have sat down and spoken with him over the past 3 months, and there haven't been any changes.

-Are there other alternatives for gaming in your area?
Soon. There's a new store opening about 80 miles away.

[MajorSoB]

Sorry to hear confirmation of what I already suspected.

We have a shop owner here that loves Fantasy but tends to play it "his way". It isn't too popular with most players and he only draws a handful of people to his events which seems to suit him just fine. It seems like you are in a similar situation.

I would consider making the drive with your friends to the new store when it opens. Carpool to save gas and have a good time. I definitely feel your pain and would stop playing in a tournament environment where I believed the results were slanted, dare I say fixed.

As far as bring it up to the owner, my advice is to be direct. I do think you should state your case directly to the owner before abandoning this store. State calmly your concerns and how your feel. Offer your help to him. You can explain that you are not alone, and it would definitely help your cause to talk to the owner with a group of people that are unhappy with the situation, rather than saying "alot of people feel like this". Its hard to dismiss an actual physical body. You can also tell him that you have plans of playing elsewhere if the situation isnt corrected. If the owner gets offended he is a fool since you and your friends leaving results in lower sales. Any game store owner should realize that they are serving a niche market and cannot afford to alienate any of their customer base. I would try talking first but if you are stonewalled, gas up the car and go!

Best of luck.