The Question of Counts-As

[Commissar Lewis]

Honestly I'd be fine with regular Marine models as Wolves, as not everyone has the money to buy another army they are interested in.

[BuFFo]

Buffo, I'm surprised that you of all people would have such an arbitrary reason for not playing against counts-as. I won't begrudge you your choice, but it seems a pointless one to me.

I changed my mind recently.

The amount of Marine players just changing armies regardless if their models look like space wolves or blood angels is really getting to me lately.

For example...

a new player in the store got into Marines, and painted them red, and decided to play Blood Angels. He heard about space wolves and their Long Fangs and now plays his army as space wolves. Not because Space Wolves are cool, but because he wants to have 15 missiles to win games.

Another new player got into the game last year and picked up Tau. He is stuck with Tau, and hates his decision. Same with the THREE Necron playerS who dropped out of the hobby last yeah, and same with the Nid player who regrets his decision as well and doesn't play the game much anymore.

You can say I just don't respect marine players anymore. Marine players feel that they can just get a free pass, while other xenos players cannot. Yeah, it is cute for a Tau player to proxy his army as Tyranids maybe once, but no one would ever let that player do so game after game after game. And yeah, I am sure the people online here are 'okay with that'. Fantasy Island.

You paid for a Tau Army, you are stuck with it. You paid for a Space Wolf army, you can choose to play 4 other armies. NO . I am sick of this flavor of month garbage with marines.

If the new player (with stock Ultramarine models) playing Blood Angels wants to play Space Wolves, paint them in SW colors at the very least. At the VERY least repaint the friggin models.

[DarkLink]

I guess if people are annoying about it I can understand.

[BuFFo]

I guess if people are annoying about it I can understand.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I converted a friends Ork Army with All Marine bits. He can play the army either as Orks or Marines, and no one would bat an eye. Why? It is beautifully converted and painted.

I have no problem with count-as, proxies, whatever as long as it is in small doses.

I'll just be honest. I paid roughly 1200 bucks for my new Dark Eldar, and I am stuck with a single codex. I'll be damned if I let my opponent just flavor of the month his marines every month.

[HsojVvad]

Welcome to the hobby. Pick ana rmy, paint your guys accordingly, use your ONE army codex and have fun. Stop trying to jump from Ultras to Wolves to BA to DA just because you play flavor of the month.

I lost a bit of respect for you BuFFo. So judgemental. This comment sounds so, how do I say it? Douchey? Can't one person like more than one army?

So to be in the hobby you have to have each mini for each army? Again, someone might have spent alot of time making a Space Wolf army, and finally wants a change. He can't afford to buy new minis. So that should mean he should quit the hobby that he spent so much time making? How do you know they are playing "flavour of the month"? So you are Mr Know It All now eh?

I have read lots of threads of how people were having "fun" playing with proxies or what not. If your "fun" is not playing with proxies, I can respect that, BUT you don't have to be a prick about it.

Again, people like you are giving "OUR HOBBY" a black eye. There is no right or wrong. Espically when Games Workshop says it's ok to proxy.

Again, you don't want to play people with proxies, that is ok, but again, don't be a Dick about it.

[steelmage99]

Wow, Buffo.

I am surprised. To me it sounds like you present an equal amount of "sour grapes" and "elitist hobbyism".

You automatically assume that a marine player switching between codexes does so because of "flavour of the month". This is odd.
Is the colour of the paint really that important?
Can't I play my Orks as speed freaks because my models are painted predominantly blue, and the traditional colour of speed freaks is red?
Can't my Chaos Space Marines (my very small modelling project) use daemons because they are painted as Iron Warriors, and they don't have a lot of truck with daemons?

I bring up those two because they used to have their own army lists. Their just got consolidated into their main codex.
The difference between those and the marine codexes is simply a marketing decision. And should that really be the deciding factor?

And how much are you really worried about the different paint jobs? I mean, really?

[BuFFo]

Steel and Hjo, you guys are over reacting, and at the very least missed my point completely. I am not talking about what you guys said ONE BIT.

And of course, being the internet, YOU guys are the ones actually insulting me calling me a dick, a douche, etc... Not once did I insult ONE person in this thread for their opinion, nor did I insult anyone I play with.

Perhaps you two need to step back, learn to respect other people's opinions or at least first TRY to understand what that is opinion IS before rushing to conclusions. Neither of you seem to have an idea what I am about.

Darklink is able to hold an adult conversation with me just fine, I don't see why this is lost on you two. We have different opinions, and we are able to converse just fine without resorting to Warseeresque proportions.

You two can do much better than this. Once you guys can talk to me without acting like a Melissa, I'll respond to you.

[DarkLink]

I can see where Buffo is coming from. If my opponents came every week and said "Hey, I want to try out this funny list with X Marines" and were cool about it, that's no problem.

But if they show up going on about how their new list they took of X blog is going to crush everyone and oh by the way I'm going to have to use my Wolves as Blood Angels... that would probably get pretty annoying after a while. It wouldn't even be about the army they played, I just wouldn't want to play that player.

Fortunately no one in my group does that. We do have two guys with SW armies who occasionally used their models under different rules, but they're cool about it. In fact, the last time they played each other using CSM rules. Not exactly band wagoning there.

[steelmage99]

@ Buffo.

Yes, I can clearly see that you are having an easier time discussing with Darklink. Maybe that is because he is barely disagreeing with you.

I do not enjoy being accused of using the same wording as HjosVvad ( talk about an annoying name. It is practically begging to be misspelled).


The only thing vaguely insulting I addressed at you was;

"To me it sounds like you present an equal amount of "sour grapes" and "elitist douchebaggery".

Notice how I have included "to me it sounds like". This opens the possibility that I may be wrong.
I have been careful to say "present" which is less of a personal thing. It also have the two-fold possibility of both me being wrong and it being an attitude you represent more than embrace.
Also note that I present them in quotation-marks making them less personal and merely a listing of two different attitudes.

In the interest of continued discussion I have edited the original post to remove any, even vaguely, offending remarks.

[BuFFo]

For me, there is a difference between the following...

-- When it is okay to Proxy Marine Models --

1) New player in the hobby. I do not want them to feel daunted by the expense of the game, so if he wants to use his marines as various chapters before deciding which army to go into, fine by me!

2) When a player wants to try out a new marine army because maybe he wants to switch over.

-- When is is NOT okay to Proxy Marine Models --

1) When a player wants to try out a new marine army because maybe he wants to switch over. For the 5th time.


Now, I am still pissed at the general consensus of people in so that it is okay to call a Ultramarine a Space Wolf, but it is not okay to call a Tau a Blood Angel. I spent a butt load on dark Eldar, and I am currently getting into Orks. Now, realistically, I cannot play my Dark Eldar as Orks for the next 3 years, and in Tournaments as stock models. So I need to spend another couple hundred bucks for a second army, while the doof at my store has had the same 400 dollar non-painted plastic gray Marine army for 3 years, yet can choose from, what, 5 different armies without anyone batting an eye?

Am I am little more clear here? I am trying my best to convey my feelings!

- edit -

I am NOT TALKING about converted armies. As a matter of fact, I knew a person who bought units for all the Marine Chapters, and claimed his Marine Chapter is just an amalgam of different chapters, sort of like Death Watch. he switched armies on the fly, and I was PERFECTLY okay with that! He put in the effort to give a sh!t, so I reciprocated in kind!