IG are by no means Over Powered!

[Renegade]

Just finished catching up reading on the News & Reviews...

What is it with people...? Most armies can to mech, and in some cases better than IG. IG are squishy, and SM can do just about anything they can, and in most cases, better. Orks can challenge any IG list, as can any other xeno.

So really, I don't get. What is the crying about?

[Denzark]

I heartily agree on the 'why the crying'. I respectfully differ on the 'space marines can do....'

5 Ed = Mech is God = IG is God of Mech.

[scadugenga]

I don't think there's "loads of crying" but there is a strong argument re: IG being the king of mech.

Which, honestly, they should be.

So far, they're the only army than can take tank/artillery squadrons. 3 Leman Russ variants for 1 Heavy Support slot is devastating.

That, and the biggest "grr" is the undercosted overly useful Chimera.

[Renegade]

I am not really that convinced. IG are incredibly squishy with a best Sv of 4+, the side and rear armour on the Chimera is paper, and the basic weapon is a joke. You have no choice with IG but to go for massive amounts of fire power. In fact, they don't have anything that is brilliant amour wise on the side and rear.

MEQs are elite's, they can still take enough fire power to do close to what IG can. You got Whirlwinds (except BT) can take a load of Dreads or Terminators, Scouts are better then anything the IG have an answer for, and have by far a lot of better FA options that are good at busting mech. The LR (which some MEQ can take a lot of) is in ways better than a Russ, and are people really forgetting the Spearhead rules, rules that can be used in any game? Rhino's can fix themselves, a Chimera can't. Immobilise a Chimera and its a pill box thats going to die to small arms fire.

What IG do well, is the same thing that Pup's do well, the units work well together.

Take away those pie plates and IG are very, very weak.

[Mizzrym]

Well I disagree on the pie plates thing, they hurt but with the prevalence of cover they're not that bad. It is the massively spamable autocannons and lascannons. If chimeras ever got autoccannon turrets it would be the end for most other armies.

[blackarmchair]

Take it from someone who played IG for years, IG are OP as hell now. I started IG around the time it's 4th ed dex came out and quit a little less than a year ago due entirely to the new book. I ran the same leafblower list against each and every foe and almost never lost, not because I am incredibly skilled but because there is simply no arguing with some of the cheese in this book.

IG infantry are squishy. IG armour is not.

The issue with the IG dex isn't that its troops are difficult to kill it's the unprecidented amount of armour that can be fielded in a single army.

Vehicle squadrons, new variants of old vehicles and a general drop in points cost have allowed IG to include a staggering amount of Mech, especially considering that even IG transports are AV12. It has become possible to create walls of APCs granting cover saves large tanks and static firing lines that hammer away past the tops of the Chimeras.

There is no single "cheese" unit, there is no simple one thing that sets IG apart as being overpowered. They simply can take too much of what is supposed to be rare and expensive.

[Daemonette666]

I don't think there's "loads of crying" but there is a strong argument re: IG being the king of mech.

Which, honestly, they should be.

So far, they're the only army than can take tank/artillery squadrons. 3 Leman Russ variants for 1 Heavy Support slot is devastating.

That, and the biggest "grr" is the undercosted overly useful Chimera.

I think IG lead the mechanised assault by a small margin. Next it is either the Tau or the Eldar who also get nice tank squadron options, and both have hover tanks to choose from. They have some nasty weapons designed to kill troops well or kill tanks well. But in a Blitzkrieg, armoured assault, you can not send the tans ahead with out a good artillery and infantry fire support to cover them and soften up the enemy. That is why I think IG edge ahead.

There is only one Space marine army that could claim to be better. They are have been designed for assault and to be really over powering and almost unstoppable. Fortunately they are expensive and their enemy generally outnumbers and out guns them, until they get into close combat, then say bye-bye. Yes the BA can take landraiders as a dedicated transport which can then deep strike, and they get fast tanks, including their whirlwinds, and they get the storm raven.

Yes Renegade, they can get lots of Dreadnoughts and even psyker Dreadnoughts who jump, but how many of them do you get to face in a game where you can have 6 lemun russes, 3 artillery tanks, and loads of troops mounted in chimeras, and add to this the vulture/vendetta gunship troop transports, and your sentinels, which I had hold an entire quad of Khorne Berserkers charges by 2 of them and they held them for 3 rounds until an Ogryn joined the battle and finished off the Berserkers ( note take a power fist for Aspiring champion lol). A few ok, but you get a lot more, so take Commander Pask, and hit him with BS 4 tank cannons.

Lucky it is not 4th edition rules. The close combat was a nightmare for IG back then.

[scadugenga]

I think IG lead the mechanised assault by a small margin. Next it is either the Tau or the Eldar who also get nice tank squadron options, and both have hover tanks to choose from.

Neither Tau nor Eldar get squadrons of tanks. Eldar grav tanks are 1 per slot. Same with Tau tanks.

Vypers are in squadron format--but that's really neither here nor there re: the KoM discussion.

Eldar do have arguably the best/most resilient dedicated transport in the game, at a paltry 2x the cost of a chimera or 3x cost of a rhino. /soapbox

[Renegade]

Neither Tau nor Eldar get squadrons of tanks. Eldar grav tanks are 1 per slot. Same with Tau tanks.

Look up "Spearhead" formations. The "wraith" death star is pretty horrible to (Wraith Guard with Wraith lords, Farseer and Warlock) Get that marching forward with some support and its nasty. War walkers can take more fire power than a sentinel.

Are people not using Landspeeders in squadrons? They have been able to for a long time, and can dish out a lot of hurt. A mix of Typhoons and Tornado's can be quite effective. Not to mention the 3++ Terminators DSing with the aid of a storm.

Some this "OP" nonsense seems to come from ridged list building, and the automatic "that unit is no good" kind of thinking. I'll point out the Valcan lists, the Lysander lists before that etc. Those that come up with these type of builds before they become popular are the ones that are playing around with what they can do.

All the 5ed codices have about an equal chance against each other, I have yet to see a real imbalance between them.

[scadugenga]

Look up "Spearhead" formations.

Look up normal games. We're not talking GW's WD expansion--that you need to agree to play, just like CoD, PS, etc.

The "wraith" death star is pretty horrible to (Wraith Guard with Wraith lords, Farseer and Warlock) Get that marching forward with some support and its nasty. War walkers can take more fire power than a sentinel.

The discussion thus far is primarily regarding Tanks. Not "death stars" of other varieties.

Are people not using Landspeeders in squadrons? They have been able to for a long time, and can dish out a lot of hurt. A mix of Typhoons and Tornado's can be quite effective. Not to mention the 3++ Terminators DSing with the aid of a storm.

Again, my response, and the overwhelming posts thus far have been about a TANK discussion, not av10 speeders. You're prevaricating. Either that, or you should have more clearly defined your response to my quote and made your other argument/statement separate.

All the 5ed codices have about an equal chance against each other, I have yet to see a real imbalance between them.

Ah, but neither Eldar nor Tau are 5ed codices.

Now, to get away from the tank discussion--you should never underestimate the ability of orders and massed lasguns. You have 50, 60 shots coming down range, you're going to cause some hurt. Even 2+ saves fail 1/6 of the time. FRFSRF makes it even more nasty. I never really gave much thought to the humble lasgun, until I put it into use.