IG are by no means Over Powered!

[MC Tic Tac]

Well I beat my Mech IG friend today using foot sloggin Space Wolves - Dawn of War set up on capture and control too so make of that what you will

I have been playing Guard since 3rd edtion (with over 5000pts) and while it's that "we're on top" after 2 Edtions of being Cannon fodder it it kind of annoying that we are now the "flavour of the month band wagon .

[RocketRollRebel]

Well I beat my Mech IG friend today using foot sloggin Space Wolves - Dawn of War set up on capture and control too so make of that what you will

I have been playing Guard since 3rd edtion (with over 5000pts) and while it's that "we're on top" after 2 Edtions of being Cannon fodder it it kind of annoying that we are now the "flavour of the month band wagon .

Dude I know what you mean. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but I get the same feeling. I've been taking them to tournys for a couple years now and b4 the new 'dex I'd do well but be only one of like 2 or 3 IG players out of say 30. Now they seem to make up 30%-40% of the armies at an event. My other army is Blood Angels and I've been seeing the same thing happen. At least I play Vostroyans tho and I haven't seen a complete Vosy army at a big event yet other than mine so I take some solace in that .

Not trying to be an arrogant jerk about it but since they became top dog in the tourny circuit I've been seeing them everywhere.

Totally thinking of starting up a Dark Eldar army just out of spite. Which I suppose is a very appropriate reason to play DE

[Renegade]

scadugenga: Its because I've heard it all before regarding different armies. I think there are a number that remember the "ZOMG BROKENZ!!!!111one!!! that CSM 3.5 got.

I have seen IG armies win and lose, but to say the are "to good" is ridiculous. All they have is guns and mech(which is the thing a lot of commentators have focused on, stating the obvious), get though that and they go squish.

Sure they are stronger than they were, and it seems that is still taking people by surprise, when all 5ed codices are stronger than they were in 4ed.

Edit: "Totally thinking of starting up a Dark Eldar army just out of spite''

Till Novermber, then everyone and there mother will have them.

[RocketRollRebel]

scadugenga: Its because I've heard it all before regarding different armies. I think there are a number that remember the "ZOMG BROKENZ!!!!111one!!! that CSM 3.5 got.

I have seen IG armies win and lose, but to say the are "to good" is ridiculous. All they have is guns and mech(which is the thing a lot of commentators have focused on, stating the obvious), get though that and they go squish.

Sure they are stronger than they were, and it seems that is still taking people by surprise, when all 5ed codices are stronger than they were in 4ed.

Edit: "Totally thinking of starting up a Dark Eldar army just out of spite''

Till Novermber, then everyone and there mother will have them.

Oh the irony of that... I'm not convinced that the DE will explode to IG or SW level, but thats a discussion for another thread...

IG do get very squishy once things go wrong and your metal boxes are gone. I run a mech vet list a lot of the time with about 4 to 5 vet squads and I've had quite a few games go south once the Chimeras are gone and my boys start to rapidly evaporate.

[jmboland]

haha alright this thread is done. Renegade, do you realize that every single point anyone has brought up, you have just responded with what you said in the beginning? Grow up, if you want to discuss something, then discuss it.

lets go over your "points":
Russ hellhound more expensive? who cares the leafblower list that everyone is "whining" about doesnt have russes or hellhounds. It has vendettas and chimeras.

70 points more for 4 less guys, 1 less special weapon, a worse tank with less armour and not as many guns, albeit it does have your amazing self repair!!!!!! OMMGMMGMGMMG self repair.... sorry i digress. the 70 pts more you pay for that squad allows the IG player to field another entire squad. Thats a huge difference.

Also, the razorback may have a better bs than a chimera but lets compare the shots you will get from a razorback with a squad in it compared to a cheaper veteran squad in a chimera:

shots from tllc razorback with squad inside= 1 twin linked last cannon shot

shots from chimera with squad inside= hull heavy bolter, turret multi laster (at a lower bs skill), lascannon shot from the squad with the same bs skill plus two more special weapons and a lasgun. Oh and did i mention that they can choose seperate targets. There is no comparrison which is better. NONE. There is NO way you can say somehow that that is better.

1 pt dif in armour??? that makes all the difference. A one point difference in armour completely changes the probabilty of penetrating the armour by over 15%. Thats huge. Tanks are made by a 1pt dif in armour. Saying that a 1 pt difference in armour is like saying a 2 up save is not that much better than a 3 up. Come on

I mean do you realize how this game works? lets say they have only meltas, so they, like you say, will have to be in your assault range. They will shoot their three meltas, at least one of the chimera weapons or at most all 3, plus two double tapping lasguns. Sure, a ten man space marine squad may still live. Then you assault the chimera. Lets say you blow it up. Maybe you will kill half the squad. Then guess what? the squad is fine!! there is still 3 melta guns and they are fine, in the open and going to kill your squad next turn. congratulations, you just killed 55 points. How do you not see this? I could understand from someone who just started but this is basic assault tactics.

did you really jsut say you dont care about getting closer to gun line guard???? im sure you will be saying that when over a 100 guardsmen get the triple tap order.

LRC? sure its a good tank. Sure your bt can take them as dedicated transports. Its a good tank. Yet it has no long range AT. You will almost always be in range of their AT for you to fire yours. At that range they will always outgun you. Not only that, its at least two turns before the LRC's get in range to either shoot up the chimeras and vendettas or drop their load. Thats two turns of multiple vendettas with 3 twin linked lascannons shooting you up. Im NOT saying the LRC is a bad tank, its a great tank, and one of the most compettive builds for BT is nothing but crusader squads in LRC's. However, this showcases guard's strength. In order for you to make up your points for your LRC's you need to kill multiple tanks and squads. For Guard, they pop even one LRC they will more than double their points.

Sure the big guns might have gotten marginally more expensive, but they also got better and they also got more numerous and easier to take. Thats fact. Its reading the rules straight from the codex. Big guns and russes have increased in points but have gotten better rules and more options such as squadrons, dif guns, lumbering behemoth rule, etc. Regardless, leafblower IG's strength is not the "big guns" as you say, but in what i have already stated.

All guard do is mech and guns??? YES THATS ALL THEY DO, THATS ALL THAT IS REALLY GOOD IN THIS EDITION. Saying that besides mech and guns ( which they are AMAZING at) guard is squishy is liek saying besides the fact that megan fox has amazing tits and is gorgeous, she really isnt that hot...

COME ON

[Aegis]

Guard may be squishy, but for every one squad of marines, there is a whole platoon of squishy... That is a lot of counter fire, especially when firing happens on a one-to-one basis for units.

For the new line of books, IG do seem to have gained the most amount of optimization. The army itself would not have become a hit sensation if there was not something to it. For instance, how many new 'nid armies have you seen since the codex? How about BA? You have some people jumping on the flavour of the month wagon, but the amount of IG players continues to grow, in both casual and competitive fields.

The simple fact is, regardless of internet grievers, is that the IG got a significant shot in the arm in terms of power, and they have become a rather dominant force on the table. There ways to beating them (I do so consistently with my Sisters of Battle), but at times, it almost feels as though the planets need to be in alignment, and the dice gods in your flavour. The sad thing is that the IG have almost become a fire and forget army, which is especially more true since the Leafblower list his the web.

Again, they are no unbeatable, but they are the most forgiving for new players to pick up, and they are down right devestating with a skilled player guiding their fire. Many of the other armies available only meet one of those two factors. In the current metegame, the guard seem to be only one to meet both. That, I believe, is the source of their power, and the source of the grief being hurled their way.

[Dr. Doctor]

IG are not so much over powerered as they are a hard army to fight, taking down mech lists requires large amounts of anti-tank firepower that leaves little room for anti infantry firepower. Infantry heavy builds lay down enough fire to decimate a footslogging army.

The codex plays to their strengths: fire power, and units that can fill almost any specific roll (Valks are fast transports, Artillery comes in anti tank, and anti infantry flavors, Russ tanks have a variant for everything.) The downside to this is most armies have fewer options than the IG when it comes to infantry, and AT and because of this it makes the Guard hard to play against.

IG has IMO the best combined arms tactics of any army and that's what makes them so deadly

[Axel]

I'm going to try and defuse the argument some here, sorry if it doesn't work.

I've been playing Guard (of all colours and flavours) for a few years now, since a few months after the brick'o'cheese of the 2nd edition Guard codex came out. While the current Codex is more obviously powerful than the 3rd edition, and 3.5 edition books, it is by no means overpowered. I should note, though, that I outright refuse to take Valkyries or Vendettas (or their ******* cousin the Vulture) in anything except a "themed" drop-trooper type list.

I'll try and make my argument by listing some things that are common factors when I lose, and common factors when I win. My hypothesis is that Guard present as overpowered due to opponent's lack of perception rather than a 'default win' mode.

Common factors when I lose:
- Multiple assaults. Normally, when I lose, I have been multiple-assaulted at least once in the game. Sometimes this is my error in squad placement or distance judgement, though more commonly I am attacked from an unexpected angle through non-standard deployment. As others have noted above, Guard units are not powerful on their own and rely on mutual support to be effective. Essentially, this means being near each other. Things like Ymgarl genestealers bursting out of cover to hack apart an entire platoon, or group of Chimerae can be deviously powerful. Likewise, fast open-topped transports (Landspeeder Storm), or close-combat oriented units that outflank (Wolf Scouts, Striking Scorpions) can bring ruin to half my force very quickly.

- Multiple small targets. Guard bring a lot of shooting to the table, that much should be obvious to anyone with two eyes. When an opponent contains multiple smaller units (as opposed to fewer large units) it causes inefficiencies in shooting. Either a lot of wounds are 'over and extra' to what would have been needed to destroy the small unit or not enough force is applied, resulting in 1 or 2 survivors. It is possible to get it 'just right', but doing so takes judgement, skill and luck. Further to this, 1 or 2 survivors can be a real pain in the butt. Taking a surviving Tactical Bolter marine within (probably) 12" of the squad that wiped out his Brothers. He can shoot me with a bolt pistol, then assault and likely tie up one squad for a few turns. It's a mini-tarpit, and very annoying from my side.

- Ongoing assaults. This combines elements from the above two points. Small units hitting my squads, or larger units hitting many of my squads, can tie up my shooting. Don't use Honour Guard with their 42 power weapon attacks - you'll just carve through 60-odd points of men and end up standing in the open. Use 5 Assault Marines. With less attacks you might stay in combat through my turn, then wipe me out in time for a rinse and repeat. If you have to use Honour Guard, or 30 Ork Boyz, or Howling Banshees then try and hit as many units as humanly (or alienly) possible. Spread your attacks as you see fit, but aim to either stay in combat or blitz enough squads off the board that losing your squad in retaliation is worthwhile.


Now, moving on to common factors when I win.
- Trying to outshoot me. Just....don't. Even if you're Tau. Though Guard v Guard can be a bloody affair. Show some tactical flexibility and play a different game. This can appear, from my side of the table, almost like a 'rabbit in the headlights'. Opponents get paralysed by something (fear?) and stop thinking.

- Overdeploying. If I'm going first, don't stack your deployment zone. Even the Master of Ordnance can hit 2000 points crammed into 12" deep zones. If you're going first, think about not stacking your deployment zone. Use Reserves, and more importantly, non-standard deployment (Deep Strike and Outflank particularly).

- Trying to fight against MEQ. A boltgun is almost as effective as a meltagun or plasma gun against Guard infantry. Mix and match your weaponry - melta spam doesn't work against a well planned and well played Guard army, though melta does have a place. Let's see some template weapons and balance come back, please!

- Rushing across in the open with smoke launchers. Guard can play the number of dice game better than anyone else in the game. I will hit you, and you will fail a smoke launcher save. Better to stay out of sight.

- Shooting the heavy armour. It's hard to get anywhere by shooting my Russes. Treat them like C'tan or Monoliths and just go for the squish(ier) bits. At some point I'll have few enough Guardsmen left that shooting near myself becomes unattractive. If you must kill the heavy armour, it is better to do it in close-combat (vs AV10 or AV11) or by using fast melta-equipped units. Russes rarely move over 6", so you should at least hit on a 4+. Landspeeders and equivalents (Pirhana, Fire Dragons in a transport, Swooping Hawks) are great here as they can stay out of sight on my turn, then zip over and melt a battle tank or two.


I hope the above points help people think about fighting against Guard. Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that they're not Marines. With a competitive and effective Codex, Guard have begun to appear on the tabletop more frequently. People still base their army design around killing Marines, who are almost the polar opposite with strong infantry and weak tanks.

Good luck, and may the dice fall your way!

[Denzark]

@ Axel - some excellent points.

@ Renegade - this may help you:

[URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discussion"]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discussion[/URL]

@ Whoever thinks IG are 'Flavour of the month'. I think IG represent a bigger commitment than that - more money, more time painting. Maybe its people who hate their non-MEQ armies getting rinsed in close assault, changing to something where the firepower (sheer amount) outwieghs their lack of hth ability.

Flavour of the Month? I think not.

[Kristov]

I find this entire discussion damn funny. There are some valid points for sure. Maybe I just have a great group, but nobody cares what army you're using, if it's in the rules, it is playable. No questions, no complaining, just playing and a good time by all. Though I don't like chimeras, and refuse to use heavies....