CSM army setup

[Pingwin]

I have started on a CSM project as a part of a deal with a mate, we both intent to do a ‘surprise army’ of 1k before next spring and play against whatever the other guy brings. Currently I play space marines (vanilla) and he has space wolfs and as we almost exclusively play each other (we live outside a game area, go to conventions couple of times a year but tend not to play 40k there) it would be cool to have a little more variation in our games.

The main concept is the army is a core raiding group with Huron and led by one of Huron’s luitenants, a chaos sorceror. Probably not the most effective CC choice point wise but with a mark of slaanesh and winds of chaos (the reroll spell) combined with his powerweapon he would still be more powerfull than my marine characters and I can always try some other spell later on.

The guy is already assembled and halve way painting, turning out quite nice with messy reds and clean bronze. Having quite a blast painting something that doesnt have to be tight and clean.

For the rest of the army I was hoping to get some feedback on how things work out in reality when you try to play with CSM.

One of the things I always liked about the CSM codex options are the lesser deamons that one can summon and that can charge in the same turn. Icons are not so expensive so that seems like a really cool thing to use. For making sure I’d be in charge range I was thinking bikes! I dont use bikes in my marine army so it would be fun to paint up a couple.

Bikes also make an interesting (2x meltagun) AT hunting platform but if you take a unit of say four bikes (icon, 2x melta and a champ with PW) and intend to use it either to break open tanks/transports up close or to be in position to deliver the lesser deamons would that work? Not knowning what army I am up against doesnt help but I guess I am not the first to have this idea…

Also interested to hear if getting two such units (redundancy baby!) would be a good idea.

For troops I am overwhelmed by the options. As I like my armies to have some bodies I was considering just to get the cheap regular guys and build two units of 8, with icon, melta gun, champ and all. Rhino’s would probably be good but my marines are full mech so I’d like to try without.

Also love the beserkers as a troop option. Could be a good distraction for the bikes (or the other way around) but they sure are expensive!

For AT power at range I was considering getting two obliterators. Cool models, non-vehicle (as nothing is a vehicle so far) and with the option to deepstrike (with the icons or without) if I feel like it.

Well, bit of a messy post I guess… think my key question is if the bike idea has any merit or if this is one of those things that will just never work.

[Connjurus]

On paper, bikes are great. The marks make them certainly a lot different than their Vanilla brothers, but man are they expensive. They make decent tank-hunters, but I can think of others that do it better with the same amount of speed - Raptors. For 120 points you can have a five man squad with 2 meltaguns. Also, Chosen are great for hunting tanks - the ability to outflank with FIVE meltaguns and multiple meltabombs is HUGE. Plus the Mark of Slaanesh for them is only like 5 points more, and bam, there's your icon.

Nice to see someone do a Red Corsairs army - they don't get a lot of love. However, I wouldn't recommend a Warptime sorceror...I hate to say it, but I'd go with Lash since you gave him Mark of Slaanesh. I only ever buy Warptime for my Tzeentchian Daemon Princes.

Lesser Daemons are great, especially in smaller games, but don't rely on them too much for CC - with only a 5++, they're not that durable - they're mainly for late-game objective grabs in my experience.

Hope this helped!

[Pingwin]

With the sorceror I am not too worried about picking the wrong power, I can always adjust that for next game without any modelling efford required.

The raptor idea is nice and so are the outflanking chosen. I will take a look at how a mix of chosen on foot, lesser deamons, raptors and bikes works out point wise. Probably better than 2x bikes and 2x lesser deamons.

thanks for the feedback!

[Connjurus]

Not a problem - always glad to help out a fellow CSM player. Glad I could be of service.

One more thing - infiltrating Chosen with Icons onto or near objectives is a great way to get your Lesser Daemons to grab'em easy.

[Pingwin]

Tactically the chosen are an interesting addition to my starting idea, the bikes and raptors can sweep forward threatening stuff and the troops can slug forward in support. With the chosen no corner will be save to hide so that would really improve my table control a lot.

What kind of number of lesser deamons would you recommend? I was thinking 10-12 for some durability if I can squize it in pointwise.

[Connjurus]

I'd stick with 10 at the most in such a small game.

And precisely. People really underestimate CSM when it comes to 'threat bubbles', because they're usually used as a hammer. But in the right hands, it is oh-so-easy to use this codex as a stiletto aimed for the heart instead.

[the jeske]

csm squads never under 10 man. always with 2 specials.
as anti tank goes. bikes 2 meltas =tons of points. raptors 5 naked =tons of points . termicid 3 meltas 105 points. raptors and bikes can be intercepted , termis are untouchable unless someone runs mystics. all 3 of those units die after smoking a tank , but the termis are cheaper and harder to counter.

the chaos sorc... does he realy have to be in the army , cant he be just in the fluff , because taking hurons is already a handicap enough for a list.

8 zerkers in a rhino with a fist champ do not cost a lot more then 10 csm with 2 meltas and same fist.

do not run a single 1x2 oblits unit. too easy to counter and a single unit wont give you enough anti tank. 2x2 or 3x2 is a much better option.

LSD . they die to horde , they bounce of even regural meq and a unit that can actualy survive costs almost as much as a csm camper unit. But if you realy realy want to take them then 2x10.

[Connjurus]

csm squads never under 10 man. always with 2 specials.
as anti tank goes. bikes 2 meltas =tons of points. raptors 5 naked =tons of points . termicid 3 meltas 105 points. raptors and bikes can be intercepted , termis are untouchable unless someone runs mystics. all 3 of those units die after smoking a tank , but the termis are cheaper and harder to counter.

the chaos sorc... does he realy have to be in the army , cant he be just in the fluff , because taking hurons is already a handicap enough for a list.

8 zerkers in a rhino with a fist champ do not cost a lot more then 10 csm with 2 meltas and same fist.

do not run a single 1x2 oblits unit. too easy to counter and a single unit wont give you enough anti tank. 2x2 or 3x2 is a much better option.

LSD . they die to horde , they bounce of even regural meq and a unit that can actualy survive costs almost as much as a csm camper unit. But if you realy realy want to take them then 2x10.

A lot of what you said is true in a larger battle, but this is 1,000 points. 2x2 Oblits is 300 points, and that's not the kind of list he wants to run. Also, Raptors can Deep-Strike the same as Terminators, and a 5-man Raptor squad with two meltaguns is only 15 points more than a three-man Term-squad with three combi-meltas, AND you DON'T have to Deepstrike them to make them effective, as Raptors can easily hop from obstructing terrain to obstructing terrain. Also, if I understand Pengwin right, he's not taking Huron, the leader of this army is a Slaaneshi Sorc, which is nothing to be laughed at. A Lash-Sorc in a 1,000 point game is very nice.

Also, 8 zerkers with a P-Fist champ in a naked Rhino is 243 points. That's almost a quarter of his entire army. As much as I love them, Aspect troops shouldn't be taken unless the battle as, at the least, 1,500 points, 1,750-2,000 preferably.

The final point - if the Sorc is painted in the colors of the Red Corsairs, it'd be no problem at all the make him a different mark each battle. And Tzeentchian Sorcerors, well...they're pretty awesome.

[Pingwin]

@the jeske: thanks for the feedback. I feel there are some downsides to deepstriking terminators, can only shoot once and if they scatter poorly the unit will not be able to do it’s job. It would be a nice addition for larger games combined with the icons from the bikes (and raptors) cause I agree terminators are fun!

The sorceror is in and yeah, the model is a red painted generic sorceror with force weapon and bolt pistol that can get a random mark and spell. I’ll start with slaanesh and the reroll spell and see if I like it. Huron is not in the list, totally agree his fluff is a lot better than his statline.

Oblit will either be just one or none, as pointwise something needs to go. Recently played my marines a couple of times without much AT and although it was hard to deal with vehicles it didnt really end up too important for the flow of the battle. Although my opponent didnt really use his freedoms very effective so that could have been it too.


Pointwise I am still strugling to make everything fit so some tweaking needs to be done, but currently I am considering setting up something like this:

Sorceror (135)
Chaos marine squad (8 guys, 1x plasmagun, icon, champ, fist, rhino) (about 250)
(sorceror joins this unit)

Chaos marine squad 5 guys for camping (75-100?)

Single obliterator (deepstrike) (75)
Some lesser deamons (deepstrike) (100-130)
Some chosen with a couple (3 I think) meltaguns using infiltrate (120)

Raptors with 2x melta and an icon(130)
Bikes with 2x melta and an icon (130)

Some points to tinker with upgrading champions and giving them PW/PF’s for CC support will be needed, but I totally see the need to raise the point limit to really get this going, lot of the units themselves are not decked out properly. I feel I lack enough sustainability with only one unit that can do something in CC and too much focus on mobile AT solutions so perhaps I’ll drop the raptors to upgrade the campers to a combat worthy unit.

[the jeske]

Also, Raptors can Deep-Strike the same as Terminators, and a 5-man Raptor squad with two meltaguns is only 15 points more than a three-man Term-squad with three combi-melta

first you tell me that 300 for oblits is too much points and then you say that 15 pts more on weaker weapon load out is ok ?

as Raptors can easily hop from obstructing terrain to obstructing terrain.

when its there. when your opponent doesnt have fast moving counter and when he doesnt have transports , because a non deep striking raptor unit will strugle to get in to range of anything that move 12" or more.

That's almost a quarter of his entire army. As much as I love them, Aspect troops shouldn't be taken unless the battle as, at the least, 1,500 points, 1,750-2,000 preferably.

list are build to overload anti tank/anti horde etc. If he plays 2 DPs 6 oblits and 2x5 plasma PMs he will do that.
If he runs 2DPs 2 units of zerkers he can try to do that. runing 8 man csm , means he is playing the SW/BA game with their troops being more or less identical only costing fewer points.

he's not taking Huron, the leader of this army is a Slaaneshi Sorc, which is nothing to be laughed at.

compering to which HQs ? a DP that costs less 0_o how does he support the army. if will have to run fewer anti tank then a 1500 list[duh I know] so he wont open transports so easy , which makes lash hard to use . on top of RP/runes etc or Inq+mystics with limitless hoods for whole table.