arjac rockfist questions

[thealmightypez]

i had a couple questions about using rockfist in an army

1) arjac's hammer counts as a thunder hammer which can be thrown, if it hits and wounds but the model isnt killed for whatever reason, does the intended target then count as being wounded by a thunderhammer i.e, being reduced to initiative 1?

2) If arjac is included in the army list, can i take a wolf lord in terminator armor with a thunder hammer/storm shield and saga of the bear?

3) i know it odesnt say it in his rules, but does arjac count as an ic?

thanks for any help

[Eldrad]

im not completely sure about the first one, i dont think so since it's a shooting attack, and pretty sure you can take another saga and gear because he is an independent character, and he is not an independent charater, he's a squad upgrade so he cant leave the unit or be singled out in cc

[Leez]

Question three is answered in the faq free from the GW website.

Question two, end of the second paragraph on page 64 dealing with Sagas explicitly answers this. Unless your question is about having the same wargear, he has Wolf's Tooth Necklace and no grenades. A Wolf Lord in termi-armour does not have Wolf's Tooth Necklace and does have grenades. Either way, Arjac is not an HQ choice.

Question One, the book gives you a weapon profile when Foehammer is used as a ranged weapon use the profile without modification or addition.


My Space Wolf is sorta rusty though.

[DarkLink]

There was a massive argument over the first point. By RAW Arjac does indeed stun his targets. There is absolutely nothing that makes Arjac's Thunderhammer stop being a Thunderhammer when he throws it. Any time his Thunder hammer causes a wound, it stuns the target, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that prevents this from happening when he throws it. Even when thrown, it is still a wound caused by a Thunderhammer.

Quite a few people refused to believe this, even though it's very clear in the rules, hence the massive argument a long time ago.


Edit: I belive this is the original thread [URL="http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2962&highlight=Arjac"]here[/URL]. There's a bit of flaming, and 22 pages of often very heated arguments over it in there.

Edit: Oh, and there's no reason to think you cannot have additional properties on a ranges weapon that are not listed in the profile. There are many, many examples of ranged weapons that have properties that are not listed in the profile, so just because Foehammer's profile does not explicitly have "stun the opponent" in it, it still gets it implicitly because it is still a Thunderhammer.

[daboarder]

sorry darklink but buy RAW, when arjac throws his hammer it has the GIVEN profile, nowhere in that profile do i see the line saying that its a thunder hammer.

[Leez]

Damn but I know there's a ranged weapon or two that have the Rending rule worked in but I can not remember which and where. Not that precedents are of any value.

edit: Either way when a ranged weapon has a special effect it has it in the profile under type for example: "Heavy 1, Rending" or "Assault 3, Sniper" or "Rapid Fire, Pinning"

Foehammer when used as a ranged attack is type: "Assault 1". If a person wanted to deviate from what the codex says the weapon is under very specific circumstances then good luck, make sure you figure out who the WAAC player is first.

[blackarmchair]

sorry darklink but buy RAW, when arjac throws his hammer it has the GIVEN profile, nowhere in that profile do i see the line saying that its a thunder hammer.

Actually, what the codex says (Without DIRECT copy paste) is Arjac's hammer COUNTS AS A THUNDERHAMMER with the following profile.

Not a Thunderhammer that can be used with the following profile, not a thunderhammer that supplants its normal rules for a different profile in the shooting phase

A thunderhammer WITH the following profile. Whether or not it was intentional RAW it stuns targets.

Coincidentally, this makes Jaws amazing for killing creatures

[Leez]

Actually, what the codex says (Without DIRECT copy paste) is Arjac's hammer COUNTS AS A THUNDERHAMMER with the following profile.

Not a Thunderhammer that can be used with the following profile, not a thunderhammer that supplants its normal rules for a different profile in the shooting phase

A thunderhammer WITH the following profile. Whether or not it was intentional RAW it stuns targets.

Coincidentally, this makes Jaws amazing for killing creatures

So it's a Thunderhammer with the following profile XXX, where the profile does not state it has any effect in addition to the Assault profile in the ranged section of the book essentially:

So A is A, whose profile is DEF, with the profile DE.

See what I mean by needing to first figure out who the "common sense" ignoring WAAC player is?

[Torcano]

If your "common sense" leads you to believe a TH will magically stop acting as a TH because GW sucks at clarifying rules, then you really need to re-evaluate how much "sense" you really have. Your opinion reeks of WAAC.

Anyways, I think you guys missed DarkLink's point. This has ALREADY been discussed, and the answer is clear. I think it goes without saying that another 20 pages of troll-**** isn't necessary?

[Leez]

If your "common sense" leads you to believe a TH will magically stop acting as a TH because GW sucks at clarifying rules, then you really need to re-evaluate how much "sense" you really have. Your opinion reeks of WAAC.

Anyways, I think you guys missed DarkLink's point. This has ALREADY been discussed, and the answer is clear. I think it goes without saying that another 20 pages of troll-**** isn't necessary?

Personally I've always viewed individuals that add things to rules or out right make them up so as to gain advantage as "reeking" of WAAC. A particularly indicative behaviour of the WAAC player is the attempt to claim the moral high ground of "common sense" and then proceed to badger those that don't agree with them because "the answer is clear". A frequent insult used by the WAAC player is to call the other person the WAAC player followed often by then dismissing them as a niggling Rules-Lawyers.

Something about casting stones springs to mind.