Functional Chaos Societies

[Magos]

This was floating around a wee bit in my brain, but here me out for a second.

How would a functional chaos society work. I mean, why cant there be a chaos society built to a functional structure, that in between the blood sacrifice, street orgys, getting infected, and turning the mailman into a dancing monkey, that people couldnt live qausi normal existences.
Or am I thinking to much.

[CrusherJoe]

Um.

Yeah.

Well.


OK, I'll say it: you do realize that to have a society requires many things but perhaps the most important thing is Order. To accomplish this, it means the individual must give up some "rights" to society or a government through an abstraction known as a social contract (meaning, the individual more-or-less gives us the "right" to harm/kill/maim anyone else that has also entered in to the same (or very similar) social contract. In return for agreeing not to do certain things, the individual gains the same protections offered under the social contract. For example, you won't kill off Ted because he took your favorite parking space, and Ted won't kill you because you're so arrogant you think that parking space is yours when it is quite very clearly his. But should either of you decide to violate the terms of the social contact (break the law) then society has the right to either punish you for breaking the contract, or removing you from the society altogether (either temporarily or permanently).

I went through all that to point out that the concepts of a social contract and an individual giving up "rights" is the very opposite of what Chaos is all about -- Chaos being, literally, the very absence of Order. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," probably best sums up a worshipper/servant/follower of Chaos.

That doesn't mean there can't be "societies" that are largely Chaotic in nature and/or focus. The main difference between a Choatic society and a "normal" one is the social contract is very different. The government is more than likely comprised of those that have the strength/weapons/army/goons/power/what-have-you to make other people do what they say by means of threat of violence and/or death. Further, no social contract exists that protects the rights of the minority view and/or the weak(er). Our fuedal system grew out of the very system (though it evolved somewhat: eventually the "commoners" expected and were given protection from other tribes/warbands/countries/etc. by the ruling class and either a warrior-aristocracy or some other means).

So, to answer your question: could a Chaotic society evolve/exist?

Sure.

You probably wouldn't want to live in it, though...probably not at all.

[Forhekset]

There is plenty of them in novels and such, from the Nurth to those in the Sabbat worlds (which there is a whole swathe of them) to even the Davinites. I'd say the most numerous are portrayed in the Heresy series, since they're constantly coming up against new human cultures that arn't to their liking.

Unfortunately the Nurth give me the impression of a middle east Islamic country. I guess it was the dry and desert setting mostly, and the fact they were *******ised as the 'enemy'. (no offence meant, but you know what I mean, hopefully)

They seemed perfectly normal really, yet their culture is steeped in chaos derived magic and religion. And thanks to Abnett, as usual, they're really a very interesting case study.

[Lord Anubis]

I went through all that to point out that the concepts of a social contract and an individual giving up "rights" is the very opposite of what Chaos is all about -- Chaos being, literally, the very absence of Order. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," probably best sums up a worshipper/servant/follower of Chaos.

Hmmmmm... I'm not sure I'd agree with that. It's definitely Chaos from a scientific viewpoint (Chaos theory, for example), but I'm not sure such a definition holds in the 40K universe, where Chaos is more a term that's been applied to a specific force/realm. Any followers of the big four have very specific guidelines to fall within and follow. Heck, Tzeentch and his followers make plans. Huge, sweeping, convoluted plans, granted, but that still implies forethought, restraint, and organization.

I think Dan Abnett's Traitor General shows a great Chaos society. It's not society as we know it, but it still has tiers, organization, industry. What I found interesting was that it didn't seem all that far off from the way Imperial society is described in most "official literature"...

[ThePov]

Yes, from what I've been able to gather together, Chaos does indeed have the capacity to form a functional society, just not a society as we know it. As far as I can tell, it's often a mix of the forced religion of the Imperium (only Chaos instead of the Emperor) and the "I killed the last guy who was in charge, and I can kill you too, so I'm in charge" mentality of the Orks. The specifics of the society would vary if it were to be devoted to one god or another, but all of them would work, even Khorne. Heck, the Blood Pact, which is notable amoung Chaos armies for their high levels of training, technology, and tactical adeptness is devoted to Khorne, as are the planets they hail from.

So yes, I echo the statements above. There could be a functioning civilian society devoted to the Chaos gods, but they would be highly militaristic and would not look much like society as we know it, if at all.



This does raise an interesting question of whether or not Chaos societies NEED the order of the Imperium as their foil, opposite, and rival? If Chaos was to win out over and wipe out the Imperium, how long would the resulting Chaos society endure before it splintered and fell in upon itself? Honestly, I can see it going either way, though the option of Chaos taking over the Imperial system of beauracacy and becoming slightly more tame seems cooler to me, personally.

[Savark]

I would imagine Chaos cultists to act very much like early christians, attending mass (in this case rituals) in secret and hiding from Romans (imperials)

[Forhekset]

One of the great things about 40k is that the 'good guys' are really just as horrible as the 'bad guys'.

Personally I wouldn't want to live in either society.

But like I said there's many examples of fully functional socities aligned to Chaos, and they do function in almost the exact same way, replacing one godhead with another.

[hummus]

I was thinking something like an aztec society were they make sacrifices to their various gods

[Mike X]

There is plenty of them in novels and such, from the Nurth to those in the Sabbat worlds (which there is a whole swathe of them) to even the Davinites. I'd say the most numerous are portrayed in the Heresy series, since they're constantly coming up against new human cultures that arn't to their liking.

They seemed perfectly normal really, yet their culture is steeped in chaos derived magic and religion. And thanks to Abnett, as usual, they're really a very interesting case study.

I also noticed this.

My initial thought was, "Wait, how can a society function normally if it worships Chaos?"

[Kahoolin]

If you've ever read the Dungeons and Dragons Dark Elf novels by R.A. Salvatore, I think Menzoberranzan is pretty close to how a Tzeentch world might function. It's basically a city of noble houses with fake social rules who are always scheming and warring with each other, plus sacrifices to evil gods etc.

Although in the GW mythos Chaos is not a social thing, it's a physical/spiritual corruption. So you couldn't for example be a "normal" person and be native to a Chaos world. You're either corrupted or not, it has nothing to do with your society. I imagine living on a Chaos world would be like living in a dream/nightmare. Things would change constantly with no regard to cause and effect. You would quickly go insane by normal standards.