Assault after Flat Out Ramming??

[Ahrimaneus]

I understand the reasoning behind your argument as you state it, however, I would ask. Why the rule that they "cannot" disembark takes precedent over the rule that they "must" disembark? Why not the other way around? Has there ever been an official ruling on this matter? As a mech eldar player I've had flat out units wrecked before and I've never had anyone try to tell me they're all dead. Now there's a long list of arguments I could make about RAI and the 5th ed rule set changes that would back up the survival thing, I am only curious as to official rulings that have been dealt

[BuFFo]

I understand the reasoning behind your argument as you state it, however, I would ask. Why the rule that they "cannot" disembark takes precedent over the rule that they "must" disembark? Why not the other way around? Has there ever been an official ruling on this matter? As a mech eldar player I've had flat out units wrecked before and I've never had anyone try to tell me they're all dead. Now there's a long list of arguments I could make about RAI and the 5th ed rule set changes that would back up the survival thing, I am only curious as to official rulings that have been dealt

You are quite right.

If you were to play that a 'first' layer rule takes precedence over a 'second' layer rule, you could not even play the game.

The game is played in a very simple manner; You play with rule A. Rule A is what you do unless you come across Rule B, which contradicts Rules A. Rule B now takes precedence over Rule A unless it is stated directly in either Rule A or Rule B that Rule B does not override Rule A.

People seem to be picking and chossing what order they want to play the rules in, and you cannot do that, as this renders the game unplayable. New rules ALWAYS override old rules, unless otherwise stated.

Wrecked Results state you must immediately Disembark. So you follow the rules for Disembarking as normal, as per Wrecked Result rules. It doesn't matter what any rules in the Movement phase say, as the Wrecked Result is the 'second' layer ruling over the Movement phase 'first' layer ruling.

The most obvious and compelling argument is a simple one. Codex rules override Basic rules. Why? If they didn't, you couldn't play the game at all. The same holds true for basic rules which override basic rules, and when basic rules conflict, you must apply the 'second' rule unless either rule specifically forbids such a thing.

Movement says you go flat out, you cannot disembark - first layer.

Wrecked Result says you MUST Disembark. There is no choice here. This isn't a may, or can. You MUST Disembark - Second layer.

I am like you. I have been Wrecked out of going Flat Out for years, and in 'Ard Boyz and other Tournaments, and never once has this come up.

I call this kind of 'discussion' internet ruling. Something you discuss on the internet 'just to do it' but has no real application in real life.

[Tynskel]

The way you are interpreting the rulebook is inconsistent.

p. 70 Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved flat out in that Movement phase.
(3 key words: that Movement phase)
p.67 The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

You are leaving out the second sentence, which states that models that cannot disembark are destroyed---- p. 70 states the models cannot disembark.
Therefore, the models are destroyed. At no moment is Rule 'A' (p.70) is in conflict with Rule 'B', because Rule 'B' specifically mentions that if models cannot disembark they are destroyed. (this is consistent within how you interpret the rulebook--- which is not necessarily mean that's how I interpret the rules, I am just using the same guidelines that you are following).

You are adding rules by stating you cannot get out if the doors are blocked---- the wrecked rule does not state this at all--- all it states is if you cannot disembark, the models are destroyed---- and in this case, you cannot disembark, because the p.70 rule states you cannot disembark (or embark) if the vehicle will, or has moved at Flat Out.

You MUST disembark, and by doing so, the models are destroyed by the second condition for 'wrecked'.

[Atrotos]

I would posit that the "second sentence" Tynskel refers to is a reference to the Disembarkation rules as they are explained in the first section of Page 67. It is by these rules that the player must abide by while disembarking (more than 1" away from enemies and so forth) not the external factor of how far the vehicle has moved. I support this position by pointing out that the Vehicle Explodes result does not apply this limitation because (since it was only in reference to the space available for disembarking) it does not apply.

This is, of course, an interpretation of the rules - not rules as written in which case Tynskel would be right. However, Buffo has already pointed out that the game becomes impossible to play in a RAW format. 40k simply isn't designed to play in a logical vacuum.

[BuFFo]

The way you are interpreting the rulebook is inconsistent.

p. 70 Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved flat out in that Movement phase.
(3 key words: that Movement phase)
p.67 The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

You are leaving out the second sentence, which states that models that cannot disembark are destroyed---- p. 70 states the models cannot disembark.

I knew this was would be the issue here.

When you are playing the game, the Movement Phase happens before being Wrecked. You move Flat Out before you become a Wreck. So you apply the rule on page 70, which bars you from Disembarking. This I agree with.

So far, you went Flat Out. The rule states you cannot Disembark. This is the current state of teh game.

Now, after going Flat Out, due to Ramming, your Raider becomes a Wreck. You now refer to the rules concerning Wrecked Vehicles.

You are told you MUST immediately Disembark. This is not a choice. This is the state of the game you are in. The first layer told you that you cannot Disembark, but now the second layer tells you that you MUST Disembark.

The second sentence is only there if you cannot actually Disembark as per the Disembark rules. If all your Access points are blocked, and there is no where for you to go, the unit is Destroyed.

Let me put it this way.

In the Movement phase, you are told that your Raider can move 12" because it is Vehicle. You are not allowed to move past 12". But then you apply the rule for being a Fast Vehicle. Now you can move past 12".

The question is simple. Why are you ignoring the effects of rules overriding each other in the case of the Wrecked Raider, but not when it comes to Moving a Fast vehicle? By your logic, Fast vehicles can never move past 12" because you cannot override an original rule. I know I may be stretching it here with this example, but the idea is still quite valid, as if I wanted to, I could take 10 minutes and find 500 Rules instances where new rules override old rules.

Either way, I am done with this debate. I have put forth my views. Any further attempt is just to up a post count .

[JMichael]

It's interesting that this is an issue.
Obviously people have different interpretations, but to me and my gaming store this has always been pretty obvious.

Wrecked=must disembark
Fast moving flat out=can't disembark (doesn't say anything about this only being voluntary)
If you can't disembark=unit is destroyed.

The order that the rules are in (as far as page #) shouldn't really matter. Indeed if it did then the game would be unplayable.

I guess to each his own. Though I have never come across this in a tournament, indeed vary rarely have I even lost a unit from within my fast moving WaveSerpents. Mostly because I fortune them to re-roll the 4+ fast moving cover save!

[BuFFo]

The order that the rules are in (as far as page #) shouldn't really matter. Indeed if it did then the game would be unplayable.

I don't think anyone here is arguing for the order of the rules as physically printed in the book.

You may be misunderstanding what people are saying.

[Mal]

I vaugely remember a couple of rules about embarking and disembarking that may add precidence to this...

There is an exception listed for units who would not normally be able to disembark...
"However, they may embark and then be forced to disembark if their transport is destroyed."

It then goes on to say...
"A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved. When the unit disembarks, each model must be deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle’s access points, and within unit coherency. They cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy model. If compelled to disembark (e.g. because of the vehicle being destroyed), any models that cannot disembark because there is no room for them to disembark into are removed from play as casualties."

Note it specifically states they are destroyed if there is no room for them to disembark... no other condition is mentioned for destroying troops through denied disembarkation.

[BuFFo]

Note it specifically states they are destroyed if there is no room for them to disembark... no other condition is mentioned for destroying troops through denied disembarkation.

Ah, yeah, thank you! This was what I was looking for this whole time. Gosh I am such a dolt.

I knew I was missing something.

[Mal]

It sprang to mind when I remembered the wording of the first part I quoted... basically saying your make to disembark even when you would not normally be able to, and gave a vehicle destroyed as an example of this.

Its an interesting discussion, but I think this is one of the not quite so grey areas in the rules.