Women GW gamers?

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I seriously doubt that. I could go on a long rant to counter your argument, but will limit it to this: if the hobby is important to you, you need to have a discussion with the woman you're with about it. If she can't deal with it, it's a sign you may need to move on. This depends on how important the hobby is to you, and how willing both parties are to compromise. A romantic relationship takes 2 people... don't throw all of this on the woman, it's completely unfair. Unless she's a mind controlling zombie queen, or she's embedded a chip in your brain that zaps you any time you do something she doesn't like... then you get a free pass.

Firstly, it's worth noting: I know my remarks seem sexist, but I am saying this only because it is a fact of my experience. I know my post was very long, but I gave, what...half a dozen examples of people whose warhammer is ruined because of an unrelenting spouse or significant other who completely belittles the hobby? I think my horror stories speak for themselves, really.

There are really only three reasons people "quit" that I've seen; can't afford it anymore (rare), upset with the game's direction (rarer still...most just play the old rules as they prefer), and...women, be it by force or by coercion. Such as one of the victims I detailed earlier, who has to ask his wife before he comes to play. She doesn't "not support" it, but in classic female fashion, she simply makes it very difficult to be dedicated to it. Same with the girl who makes my friend keep his stuff under the bed and checks his bank statements to make sure he hasn't bought anything. She doesn't prevent him from playing, just makes sure that he is sufficiently hindered that it isn't worth doing. Or my other friend whose wife intentionally calls him during games and got him canned from that tournament -- I don't think he's finished a game since he got married last year.

Between that, and the other stories of girls coming into mall GWs and mocking people, is it any wonder that women are not welcome at these places? In fact I would go so far as to say that the reason these places have such a brotherly camaraderie is precisely because it is a sort of bulwark against the feminine oppression the general 40k audience all seems to have dealt with (whether you are a disrespected or jilted husband, a live-in boyfriend, or a guy like me who is just not handsome enough for the generally shallow females I've dealt with to treat me like a human being, heh).

The problem is more with relationships than with female gamers themselves, of course. My club is all guys who wouldn't even know how to speak to a girl, let alone belittle her. We are all fans of the game and the people who play it don't concern us -- if someone was a jerk, we would just make it our mission in life to smash them from the tabletop over and over again.

I find some of the rudeness the female gamers have been met with to be totally appalling. I'm not a chivalrous person by any stretch and I think half the worlds' problems might be solved if women were really men's equals socially speaking (on both the good and bad parts...). If any of you are in the Boston area, I invite you to come play with my group -- nobody will treat you that way there, and we can use more players (there's only six of us atm...)!

I think it's funny that people are assuming that I have been in these horrible relationships, or that I would just as soon give up the hobby because someone told me to. Would that it were so simple, but it isn't. If you are living with a woman, or have a child with someone, or are married...you can't just go "I know this makes you mad but I'm going to do it anyway." Sometimes the situation is more complicated than that.

As for me...I'm 26...and when a girl has a problem with what I do, I tell her she can take a walk. I'm still young!

Women should be more than welcome at the gaming table for the same reason that men should be: they are a person and if they find their joy rolling dice, they should be able to do so.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm not saying that the whole situation with female gamers is as it should be -- it is horrible that women are treated like pariahs in the gaming environment, just like it is when they are ostracized in other male-exclusive environments!! All I was getting at is, the number one predator of war gaming (at least as far as I've seen) has been vindictive female indoctrination.

It's not right, but there is definitely a cause to the effect, at least in my experiences anyway. I would like to see the paradigm broken, not further enabled!

[Aims]

Guys, I'm getting some pokes for questionable posts in this thread. Keep it clean. Keep it polite. No flaming wars. Please.

[ZenPaladin]

I just wanted to go on record as saying that the Emperor has a point. SOME women are manipulative and controling just as SOME men are. And unfortunatly a lot of the people who play these games are ripe for the kind of manipulation and out right social bulling that these types can put out.

Its easy for a mature and experianced adult to say if you don't share my hobbies take a hike. But for a young man with his first girlfriend is she says drop the game or we are through it can be difficult if not imposible for him to say then get lost sweetheart 40K is more fun than you.

Even worse many of these people might feel like the pressure they are bringing is a good thing. That they are helping their significant other break their adiction to childish/abnormal/expensive persuites. Heck some of em might even be right!

[EmperorEternalXIX]

ZenPaladin makes my points in a much more concise and sociably acceptable way. Forgive me, BoLS Loungers -- I come from the Press, and to be incendiary is my default setting, heh.

There is another side, too. I earned myself a pretty poor reputation when I told a local girl we couldn't get involved because she belittled my hobby so much. She was REALLY rude, worse than most, she flat out told me I was a giant loser and that she couldn't believe I ever had a girlfriend or friends. At a point, I just broke things off, and my reason was "you are very disrespectful of my hobbies and clearly don't respect my decisions"...but this led to a whole sect of local girls being told that I was, quote, "a little f****t who would rather play with little toys than be with a girl...not like he would know what to do with one anyway!"

It led to a nightmare in which I was assailed constantly about it for weeks.

I wish it were as simple as saying "this is what I do, respect it please." But it usually isn't, and rarely is.

[The Girl]

There are really only three reasons people "quit" that I've seen; can't afford it anymore (rare), upset with the game's direction (rarer still...most just play the old rules as they prefer), and...women, be it by force or by coercion.

In my experience it's been lack of money, followed by lack of time due to college/work and becoming disenchanted with the game. I've yet to see anyone totally walk because their spouse or girlfriend pushed them to it. Obviously, the things you've seen are different. Neither one of us can really give a certain #1 reason why players choose to leave.

Such as one of the victims I detailed earlier, who has to ask his wife before he comes to play. She doesn't "not support" it, but in classic female fashion, she simply makes it very difficult to be dedicated to it.

"Classic female fashion"? I'm failing to see how remarks like this, and several others you have made in this thread, aren't sexist. I won't make assumptions about what has led you to have the attitude you have towards women, and I don't care... but at least call it what it is. Don't try to excuse it, or make it seem less than what it is.
As you've said, you're young... two things go with this: you have time to meet women that are different from those you've mentioned in the thread, and you have time to unlearn this attitude.

Would that it were so simple, but it isn't. If you are living with a woman, or have a child with someone, or are married...you can't just go "I know this makes you mad but I'm going to do it anyway." Sometimes the situation is more complicated than that.

This is where discussion and compromise comes in to play... things you find in healthy, adult relationships. If something is really important to you, you should talk about it and come to some sort of compromise. Never claimed it was easy, relationships are work, just that it's not 100% on the woman's or the man's shoulders. It's called a partnership for a reason.

[gwensdad]

(And now, relationship advise from someone who only really had a handful of girlfriends, but is married and has a little girl so there)

There's one possible trick to finding a girl who will "put up" with the hobby-find one with there own "thing". Case in point-my wife has a large comic collection, some ladies I know on sci-fi forum ([URL="http://forum.galacticwatercooler.com/index.php"]link plug[/URL]) are, well, big sci-fi fans. As long as you can find time for each other, work, school, and that option known as "sleep", both parties can enjoy their hobbies, enjoy-um-each other, and blahblahblahblah (cut off due to oversickingly sweetness possible. Maybe I'll go paint up those last 2 servitors now while the wife writes some DCU fanfic)

[Denzark]

I view the following as facts:

1. Our hobby is thought of by, if not the majority of those who encounter, at least a large proportion, as one for geeks and nerds.

2. Geeks and nerds attract bullying.

3. With regards to Brit kids, males tend to physically bully, whereas females tend to go for the whole mental twisting thing - the expression 'bunny boiling snakes with t*ts' didn't come from thin air.

4. Whilst I (a 30 yo) work with youth and my wife is a teacher, so can attest to the above, I don't know about the States. However Hollywood seems to imply through various films that there is a massive clique-y 'in crowd' vibe who attack geeks (ie us!) in the way Emperor mentions - anyone seen Buffy recently?


So I think, whilst Emperor may have couched what he is saying in a way offensive to some, I am sure he is actually giving truthful examples, not trying to be a mysoginist dinosaur.

I haven't seen a post actually saying women in gmaing is a bad idea - for men who are actualy escapism junkies I am suire the group/circle they normally game in is mostly males by choice but in a shop/tournament I hope they would be welcoming.

I believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I would hope (as a gentleman) that a group of male gamers would make a female welcome out of sheer politeness. But if you want to join a games group the needs of the many come into play - you need to adapt to them if you expect to join. So a female (or anyone) would need to be extra tolerant of the existing group and give them more leeway then they would give her.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

-- I come from the Press, and to be incendiary is my default setting, heh.

Not only that, you are also from Boston...

[DoctorEvil]

Such as one of the victims I detailed earlier, who has to ask his wife before he comes to play. She doesn't "not support" it, but in classic female fashion, she simply makes it very difficult to be dedicated to it.

As a married guy, I too have to ask for "permission" whenever I want to play. Here's the thing....I know I don't have to really ask "permission", I can play whenever I want to. But when I got married (to the woman of my dreams), I took on certain responsibilities that I didn't have before. A mortage, saving for retirement, children. etc.....all things that as a single guy, I never really thought of. So now I had to balance playing my "games" versus the importance of the other things. Quite honestly, when it comes down to spending a weekend with my wife & kids vs. spending it with a bunch of sweaty nerds....the wife & kids tend to win. That's a choice I gladly made when I got married.

Now, from the perspective of the guys at the LGS....The Doctor is totally whipped . He's ALWAYS got to ask "permission" from his wife to play, and doesn't seem to ever be able to get it!!!! So, yes, I use my wife as the "bad guy" when don't play. I'm sure the guys at the LGS use the same quote as above to describe my situation...but it's not really accurate, because I choose my priorities.

Honestly, my wife is not 100% supportive of my hobby either. She thinks the money could go to better things, but until she gives up manicures & pedicures, well she doesn't have a leg to stand on

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Quite honestly, when it comes down to spending a weekend with my wife & kids vs. spending it with a bunch of sweaty nerds....the wife & kids tend to win. That's a choice I gladly made when I got married.

This is the kind of stereotype that causes the problems which led to this thread being created...

I suppose your point is valid but it must assume my friend has the choice, or the desire, to spend time with the family or otherwise. Suppose the opposite is true, and suddenly it is not so innocent or so willing a choice.

Not everyone who says "My wife told me I can't play this week" is just using her as an excuse to dodge the game. It's likely a 50/50 thing, but again I'd be remiss to point out...even if it were just counting myself, I would be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time a lady in my life said with a degree of palpable annoyance, "You're going to play that game AGAIN? Didn't you just play it?"

I wish the gaming world was more open to females overall. One fellow I met recently has his whole family in on the deal, and has a very close relationship with his daughter and son because of Warhammer. It can be a great boon for family life when used properly.

Bottom line, it is about how respectful you are to the LGS and your group. I personally would be pretty offended if I found out someone had been lying to us about his wife forcing him to not play, to avoid fraternizing with us "sweaty nerds."

Not only that, you are also from Boston...

heh, yes...we're not known for our tactfulness in this dump, hehe.