Flamers and Flyers

[DrWobbles]

say an infantry unit is parked near a valkyrie or stormraven or any vehicle with one of those new 'flyer' stands. an enemy unit targets the vehicle with a flamer while simultaneously coating the infantry unit in purifying flame.

is this legal? or is the vehicle too high up to hit the infantry due to the height of its base?

Arguement #1: anything under the template from a bird's eye view would get hit.

Arguement #2: the template doesn't have the volume to cover both

i would side with #1 because the rules only describe buildings as having more than one level or plane. i can't find a description or rule set for varying model heights.

A clear concise answer would be greatly appreciated.

[Gir]

say an infantry unit is parked near a valkyrie or stormraven or any vehicle with one of those new 'flyer' stands. an enemy unit targets the vehicle with a flamer while simultaneously coating the infantry unit in purifying flame.

is this legal? or is the vehicle too high up to hit the infantry due to the height of its base?

Arguement #1: anything under the template from a bird's eye view would get hit.

Arguement #2: the template doesn't have the volume to cover both

i would side with #1 because the rules only describe buildings as having more than one level or plane. i can't find a description or rule set for varying model heights.

A clear concise answer would be greatly appreciated.

Treat the valkyire and stormraven exactally as you would treat any other skimmer.

[DrLove42]

Everyone playsa little different

Some count the chassis of the flier (say the bodywork in a Valk).
Some count the whole model (wings, tail boom etc)
Some count just the base.

Personally i go for the first one. And if the template touches the model it hits. Its not a flier in a standard game, its a skimmer, just like landspeeders, eldar falcons, jetbikes, deffkoptas etc etc. The fact its on a big stand doesn't protect it...it just makes it more vulnerable as it gets less cover saves in the world.

So birdseye view...hit everything. Same as you can use a flamer template to hit multiple squads if lined up properly...

[Sandman2663]

The Template has got to be the best weapon in the game. They ignore Cover and auto hit...I love it!
I use around 8-12+ Templates in a game I play whether it is MEQ or IG.

That being said, I have used the Template on Vehicles/Infantry many times and quite effectively.
When used against a vehicle like a Rhino, Razorback, Chimera, Truck, etc. and there is Infantry in close proximity to the vehicle you have two options.

You have to maximize the Template on the target unit, meaning you must cover as much of the target model as possible before covering a proximity unit. BRB pg 29: 'Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model.'

1- Target the Vehicle and maybe hit the Infantry. You could position your units close to the target to try and close the lane of fire but it is difficult.

2- Target the Infantry next to the Vehicle and hit the Vehicle in the process. Works best against
Infantry on the otherside of a vehicle thinking they get cover...nope, sure don't.

I use option 2 more than 1 because it is easier to maximize on Infantry than a Vehicle. If you positioned your unit around the Vehicle you could also be in Assault range after fire and still multi-assault.

As for the Vehicle Skimmer...the Hull is the part of the model to be covered by the Template. BRB pg 71. 'The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer,...'

[somerandomdude]

You're right that only ruins have multiple levels, but this isn't an issue of multiple levels. Weapons ranges (including templates) are measured from the hull of the vehicle, which for those vehicles is the large hunk of plastic suspended above the table.

When you place the template, you have to place it so that it touches the base of the model firing it (the only exception is with levels in ruins). If you can place the template so that it physically touches the firer AND covers a portion of the vehicle's hull, then you can affect the vehicle. Otherwise, the vehicle is not hit.

Think of it this way, if a Rhino is about 8" away (the template is 8" long) but on top of a hill, changing the angle of the template, it wouldn't be able to touch the hull. The game is played in 3 dimensions. 99% of the time it doesn't matter for measure weapon ranges, but that doesn't mean it never does.

Also keep in mind what Sandman said about covering as many models as possible, because that could make it impossible to cover both.

[Tynskel]

don't forget weapons on vehicles, they fire from the physical mounting, not the model base. Example, a Blood Angels furioso fires both its melta and hv flamer--- the flamer is measured from the arm.

[Cheeseburger!]

What DrWobbles was trying to do one day was using one unit to shoot a melta gun at my valkyrie while simultaneously burning the squad that recently disembarked. Effectively shooting at two different units, even though the flame template was no where near the hull of the valkyrie. I felt that couldn't be right so I turned to the rulebook and found my answer on page 71 under measuring distances, "As for normal vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting."

This ruling shows that the template must be pointed towards the vehicle, not the base. And I sujjest, to determine the volume of the flame template, you simply turn the template vertical to see if it would touch other models for a 3D perspective.

No cheaty targeting allowed!

[isotope99]

This ruling shows that the template must be pointed towards the vehicle, not the base. And I sujjest, to determine the volume of the flame template, you simply turn the template vertical to see if it would touch other models for a 3D perspective.

No cheaty targeting allowed!

This seems like a reasonable compromise.

My only current bugbear is the restrictions these types of rules place on modelling. If I model a vehicle (say the new Dark Eldar razorwing) low like an eldar skimmer(which I have), I'm cheating by looking for extra cover saves, if I model it high, I'm cheating by trying to outrange other weapons, like flamers and meltas. Can't win . It would be easier if GW would just put in an FAQ that flyers (list what this applies to) should be based 4" off the ground or something.

Mathhammer challenge: How tall would a valkyrie base need to be to make them immune to infantry based melta guns . Answers on a digital postcard

[DrLove42]

What DrWobbles was trying to do one day was using one unit to shoot a melta gun at my valkyrie while simultaneously burning the squad that recently disembarked. Effectively shooting at two different units, even though the flame template was no where near the hull of the valkyrie. I felt that couldn't be right so I turned to the rulebook and found my answer on page 71 under measuring distances, "As for normal vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting."

This ruling shows that the template must be pointed towards the vehicle, not the base. And I sujjest, to determine the volume of the flame template, you simply turn the template vertical to see if it would touch other models for a 3D perspective.

No cheaty targeting allowed!

In your example there the flamer would miss the infantry squad (even if it covered them) unless it touched the tank. it it touches the tank the squad are hit as well

And your wrong about measuring to the model...its from a top down view, not a 3d viewmetric....or else I could stick a valk on a flying base 3 feet high and be out of range of all your weapons, cos they have to emasure to the hull (:P). it measures to the hull from a top down view...

[TSINI]

In your example there the flamer would miss the infantry squad (even if it covered them) unless it touched the tank. it it touches the tank the squad are hit as well

And your wrong about measuring to the model...its from a top down view, not a 3d viewmetric....or else I could stick a valk on a flying base 3 feet high and be out of range of all your weapons, cos they have to emasure to the hull (:P). it measures to the hull from a top down view...

This is true, you don't ever have to angle the flamer template up or down, because it effectively acts like a orbital flamer shaped laser beam from the heavens capturing everything underneath it (apart from models on other levels of a building/ruin)

so if you can place the flamer over the infantry squad's head, and under/over the valkyrie hull then both are hit.