GW v Chapterhouse Lawsuit Update

[Aldramelech]

Weeb

I like the way you've used the assumptive close, that GW are in a lose/lose situation.

I can see absolutely no reason why a multi-million pound profit making company, listed and floated on the LSE, would resort to what you are describing - ie a massive gamble.

Especially not a gamble where they may lose or compromise the integrity of one of their biggest assets - the thing that keeps us coming back even with price raises and poor service - the IP/fluff.

Even less logical to my mind is that, if they were bluffing, when the bluff was called, ie engaging pro bono wunderkinds, that GW would continue - if the cards in your hand ain't worth jack no amount of chip bullying will win you the hand when your bluff is called.

Again going on logic I therefore follow through that GW think they have an option 3 - they can win, and piledrive CHS into the ground for everything they have stated in the case.

Anyway, now CHS is so confident, I believe there was a little matter of credit notes for people who contributed to the defence fund - a pro bono lawyer, combined with the fact that CHS are so sure they will win, means he can carry through this promise as he clearly doesn't need the money.

I believe this is a classic example of "having an attack of the clever's". Just because their big dont automatically make em smart.

[addamsfamily36]

If CHS wins, and GW loses value in its IP, CHS and other parties gain right to make 3rd party products etc etc Then it will be a sad day.

Ok some people in the community will get what they have always wanted. Alternative products that they can use. GW stores on the other hand can just turn around and say that wasn't made by us, please remove it from our gaming tables. So the products will only be able to be used at non official GW sites anyway. (which isn't necessarily a problem).

But As a company clearly already struggling in the current market, with loss of earnings, store closures, staff cuts etc etc. This case if it goes against GW will not only hurt GW but in turn will effect CHS.

If GW loses its Power over its IP, brand, trademarks , copyrights then the vultures will come and tear it apart. Ok GW is a strong company, but its still Produces elite/luxury items in a devastated currency climate. If as a result GW falls even further down the ladder as the lead competitor in the market there will be more cut backs, price increases, staff job loses. the list goes on.

I hope the day never comes that GW loses this case and 100 other parties jump on the band wagon and start producing alternative products to go with GW miniatures. What if it effected GW so much, that they had to drastically downsize, WHat if further down the line its loses more and more of its hold on its IP, what if it had to sell its IP? or go bankrupt? (ok not likely but once you start the ball rolling with one case, who knows what can happen).

So if GW was effected, And shut down, all those 3rd parties suddenly have some products that have nothing to go on anymore. No ideas to steal.

Just a thought.

Think about it.

[eldargal]

You are overblowing the situation dramatically. CHS is not making miniatures, they are making conversion parts that require GW miniatures. If your logic held then Mantic et al who produce fantasy 28mm scale miniatures would all be hurting GW. Fact is competition is only good for the industry AND Games Workshop, if it makes them lift their game.

If CHS wins this case, it says to GW that other companies can make conversion parts for their models, it does not give other companies the right to GWs entire IP.

[Denzark]

I believe this is a classic example of "having an attack of the clever's". Just because their big dont automatically make em smart.

I should know bud - waiting for PR11 to see if Dr Fox cuts us back further. Ho hum. Having said that I can't help thinking a big company would be more risk averse with shareholders money.

If CHS wins, and GW loses value in its IP, CHS and other parties gain right to make 3rd party products etc etc Then it will be a sad day.

Ok some people in the community will get what they have always wanted. Alternative products that they can use. GW stores on the other hand can just turn around and say that wasn't made by us, please remove it from our gaming tables. So the products will only be able to be used at non official GW sites anyway. (which isn't necessarily a problem).

But As a company clearly already struggling in the current market, with loss of earnings, store closures, staff cuts etc etc. This case if it goes against GW will not only hurt GW but in turn will effect CHS.

If GW loses its Power over its IP, brand, trademarks , copyrights then the vultures will come and tear it apart. Ok GW is a strong company, but its still Produces elite/luxury items in a devastated currency climate. If as a result GW falls even further down the ladder as the lead competitor in the market there will be more cut backs, price increases, staff job loses. the list goes on.

I hope the day never comes that GW loses this case and 100 other parties jump on the band wagon and start producing alternative products to go with GW miniatures. What if it effected GW so much, that they had to drastically downsize, WHat if further down the line its loses more and more of its hold on its IP, what if it had to sell its IP? or go bankrupt? (ok not likely but once you start the ball rolling with one case, who knows what can happen).

So if GW was effected, And shut down, all those 3rd parties suddenly have some products that have nothing to go on anymore. No ideas to steal.

Just a thought.

Think about it.

there is a little biting of the hand that feeds here.

You are overblowing the situation dramatically. CHS is not making miniatures, they are making conversion parts that require GW miniatures. If your logic held then Mantic et al who produce fantasy 28mm scale miniatures would all be hurting GW. Fact is competition is only good for the industry AND Games Workshop, if it makes them lift their game.

If CHS wins this case, it says to GW that other companies can make conversion parts for their models, it does not give other companies the right to GWs entire IP.

Other companies are, my dear EG, but not being so blatant in their ripping off. I see fully what everyone says about spare ipod covers etc - but most of these are ****e quality, thats why they're most commonly found being sold by pikeys in town centre market stalls. GW has been quite repetitive in their wish to keep the quality high hence no external licenses except those controlled tightly like FFG.

[eldargal]

Yes, but 3rd party production is legal, so what GW wants in this regard is irrelevent. Of course they want to maintain absolute control over every aspect of their IP but that doesn't mean it is legal. Making parts 'for use with GW' products and specifying what products is also perfectly legal. Their DoM and female Farseer models are obviously complete models and I'm not sure what will happen re those. Its interesting and odd though, that one of the things that GW seem particularly obsessed with is the Tau style walker, something which isn't particularly fluffy (Tau and fliers).

[Col.Gravis]

Joy.... I find myself agreeing with weeble, GW is now going to hurt either way. I find myself wishing CH had just rolled over an died. Should I be ashamed of that? Possibly. Does it actually bother me, I'm erring on no.

And before I get lynched, that's not exacting the feeling I expected, Im somewhat surprised with myself.

[weeble1000]

Its interesting and odd though, that one of the things that GW seem particularly obsessed with is the Tau style walker, something which isn't particularly fluffy (Tau and fliers).

I think Games Workshop's beef about the walker is a complex issue for the company. It's a whole model. It looks really cool. It looks like it could be part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. I imagine that this is weirding out Games Workshop. Games Workshop is probably asking questions like, "Hey, can he do that," and "Why didn't we think of that?" It might even be thinking that the walker is something it had already thought about producing. I think the walker is also tied up in issues about how Games Workshop's intellectual property is interpreted. If one company can make a whole model that could be used with the game, couldn't other companies do that? What about in the realm of video games, or books, or even movies?

I think Games Workshop is hyper sensitive about its intellectual property and it has had a massive overreaction to Chapterhouse Studios. The company feels vulnerable and I think it feels like Chapterhouse Studios is stealing what it has worked for years to create. I also think that it's worried that this might be a sign of things to come. Young companies with good ideas, creativity, and low overhead are probably a little worrisome. It might be that Games Workshop feels like its business is slowly slipping out of its grasp.

The problem is that Games Workshop's response was to shoot first and ask questions later. Its response was to use its bulk to destroy Chapterhouse Studios and send a message, but it didn't bother to think about its position.

Games Workshop is trying to argue that just because it thinks that something could exist within its fictional universe, it should have exclusive rights to it. Games Workshop is conflating the use to which customers will likely put the walker with the product itself. In making this type of argument, Games Workshop has created a potential legal issue that is interesting enough for a major law firm to get involved.

Just think about it for a minute. How do you say that you own something that you've never expressed in any way? Legally, Games Workshop is saying that the product is derivative, but derivative of what? There has to be an underlying copyright in order for there to be a derivative copyright. But what does Games Workshop claim as the underlying copyright? The Tau Crisis Suit, the Hammerhead, the Broadside, Gun Drones, the Piranha? What is it that has been morphed into the Chapterhouse walker? It's not really any one particular thing. It can't be. None of those things are individually much like the walker. So the underlying copyright has to be something even less tangible. What is it?

Games Workshop is arguing that it's an issue of style; a sort of look and feel argument. But what is that style? What aesthetic qualities of the Tau form an underlying copyright? Well, you don't have much. The Tau don't have a very unique aesthetic when compared to the rest of science fiction, particularly anime. The smooth lines, organic shapes, and geometric patterns are elements that have been borrowed from other sources, which is fine. But this also means that there's little to copyright. But there has to be something that makes the Tau aesthetically unique.

The Tau race is incredibly aesthetically unique when compared to the rest of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Within that universe, Tau vehicles, weapons, troops, and methods of warfare make the faction identifiably distinct from the others. The same is true for the Eldar, Orks, Daemons of Chaos, and the rest of them. So is this what Games Workshop is claiming as the underlying copyright; that within the context of the Warhammer 40,000 universe the Tau style is unique? This seems to be exactly what Games Workshop is arguing. It’s saying that if you put the Chapterhouse walker next to a bunch of Tau vehicles, it would sort of fit in, but if you put those models into a game of Warhammer 40,000, a player would assume that they all belong to the Tau.

The underlying copyright then is the Warhammer 40,000 fictional universe. This is perfectly clear from the complaint as Games Workshop talks about how the universe is represented in books, movies, video games, artwork, models, etc. and how all of this is a unique creation belonging to the company that is vital to its business. But what does that argument mean?

It means that if Games Workshop is right, anything that might relate to its models, games, or universe is a derivative copyright owned exclusively by Games Workshop, even if that relationship would only exist if the product is placed within the context of the universe after a purchase is made. This argument is frightening even in the sole context of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. What happens if you use Mantic Games Abyssal Dwarves in Warhammer Fantasy? You could. They would fit in well on the table top and in the context of a Warhammer game they would be identifiable as dwarves. What about a Privateer Press model? I have a whole platoon of agri world PDF troopers that I use in my Imperial Guard army that are made out of Victrix Napoleonic War models. And this is just models for use in the game. This legal interpretation extends beyond models.

It also extends beyond Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. Games Workshop’s claims have implications for the way copyrights are interpreted. Anyone could make the same sort of argument about a derivative copyright based on contextual comparison. This is a contentious legal position. Games Workshop created that position by suing Chapterhouse Studios and it has drawn the attention of Winston and Strawn.

The issue is not Chapterhouse Studios stealing its ideas from Games Workshop. The issue is Games Workshop claiming to own everything that could have a place in its hugely broad fictional universes even if it does not exist and has never been thought of before. That is a mind-boggling interpretation of copyright law. Clearly, Winston and Strawn believes that fighting this legal interpretation is in the interest of the public good.

[addamsfamily36]

You are overblowing the situation dramatically. CHS is not making miniatures, they are making conversion parts that require GW miniatures. If your logic held then Mantic et al who produce fantasy 28mm scale miniatures would all be hurting GW. Fact is competition is only good for the industry AND Games Workshop, if it makes them lift their game.

If CHS wins this case, it says to GW that other companies can make conversion parts for their models, it does not give other companies the right to GWs entire IP.

I did state (unlikely) and it was more of a theoretical outcome.

CHS might not be making full miniatures, well except the eldar farseer on bike, but if they win the case whats to stop them?

As to providing conversion parts, there are some pieces of the GW site and on forgeworld. I agree the lack of choice and stock is frustrating. Scrapping being able to order any single metal part from GW was a huge blow to hobbyists. But they are slowly bringing items back whilst updating armies.

Competition is good. Copying and selling under the banner of GW hurts the companies reputation and devalues their Ip. I can't agree that thats a good thing.

[Denzark]

The issue is not Chapterhouse Studios stealing its ideas from Games Workshop. The issue is Games Workshop claiming to own everything that could have a place in its hugely broad fictional universes even if it does not exist and has never been thought of before. That is a mind-boggling interpretation of copyright law. Clearly, Winston and Strawn believes that fighting this legal interpretation is in the interest of the public good.

Weeble this overall is the most empathic and common sense post you have made in 8 weeks with the exception of your last para. Don't try and make out W&S as some sort of moral crusaders.

The few lawyers that fight for the public good do pro bono against the death penalty, or giant oil companies torching rain forests, or Macdonalds or Camel for making cancer ridden obese monsters who can't control their own urges.

Winston and Strawn believe what most lawyers believe - that they may be able to make some money - the thing for which any normal lawyer would eat the content of their own jakes.

"Have you ever seen a lawyer apologise? I haven't and I don't suppose anyone else has. It must be like watching a snake eat its own vomit." Thomas, Lord Cochrane, to Lt Col Richard Sharpe, Sharpe's Devil, 1992.

[Aldramelech]

Cancer ridden obese monsters who can't control their own urges.

Calling me names again? You can take my **** from my cold dead fingers..........................

Edit: The English word for Cigerettes is banned?