Flamers and Flyers

[Gir]

Thats a good point about infantry assaulting valks. I can't wait for the "summer of fliers". Please fix my headache.

What headache? The Stormraven and Valkyrie are SKIMMERS. there height on the base doesn't matter, as they are treated as being on the building level their base is. Therefore, if the base is on the ground, and the template goes 'under' it's hull, it's hit.

Seriously, where is the difficulty with this?

[Cherub]

What headache? The Stormraven and Valkyrie are SKIMMERS. there height on the base doesn't matter, as they are treated as being on the building level their base is. Therefore, if the base is on the ground, and the template goes 'under' it's hull, it's hit.

Seriously, where is the difficulty with this?

The difficulty is that people think skimmer and flyers are the same thing and try to get rules for them both when they are two seperate things. So by the rules books here are the differences.

Regular 40k- valks, stormravens etc are SKIMMERS and can be hit by flamers and other template weapons as per normal, using the shooting at skimmers rules.

In APOC - valks, stormravens are SOMETIMES flyers depending on what datasheet you go off ( the newest says in apoc count as flyers) and in that cause when in FLYER mode can not be hit my template weapons and when in SKIMMER/VTOL mode can.

All in all its pretty easy, just have to remember what game your playing so you know what rule book to go to

[Cheeseburger!]

Apoc rules have nothing to do with the confusion. The complication of the 'flier' base presents the problem.

"there height on the base doesn't matter, as they are treated as being on the building level their base is."

Where does it say that? I do know that it says distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull on page 71 in the rule book. And it says against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible on page 29.

[thecactusman17]

"Flier base" is something you keep saying but it means diddly squat next to the "unit type: skimmer" in the vehicle profile.

Your "flyer base" model is a skimmer in normal games of 40k. In those games, skimmers are considered to be targeted at the vehicles hull. The hull may be high in the air or low (and measuring to or from it is done TO THE HULL), but it is ALWAYS considered to be at the same level as the base. Template weapons and blast weapons target the model at building or terrain level, not at weird angles or anything else. They affect alll models encompassed by that template on that level. If you have a problem with this, my first suggestion is to stop letting your incredibly under-armored vehicles get within flamer distance and take out that artillery. My second suggestion is to only play friendly games, because you would get laughed out of most stores I've ever played at trying to argue against this.

The game is intentionally abstract in some areas to facilitate gameplay. This is one of them. Stop trying to weasel your way out of something that shouldn't even affect you 99% of the time (seriously, what are you getting hit by, Hellstorm templates? You're armor 10 minimum for Chrissakes and the most powerful flamer templates are S6).

[Cheeseburger!]

Now I have to repeat myself because you didn't read the original problem. It's not the valkyrie i'm worried about getting hit by the template, it's the squad that just disembarked from it that is being hit as well. My opponent's squad had a melta and a heavy flamer. Shot the Valk with the melta then flamed the disembarked squad, effectively targeting two different units in one shooting phase. That's why I am arguing my point because that is one giant flame that is hitting my units.

[Cheeseburger!]

And once again there is no reference! Where does it talk about targeting on the same level b.s.?

[Cheeseburger!]

Okay. I made some awesomely artistic diagrams for you guys and gals so you can hopefully understand my argument. And I know the geometry isn't perfect. There are two major points I want deal with concerning flame templates versus skimmers. One is how to place the template and the other is the volume of the template.

In Box 1 we have a bad guy equipped with a melta gun that is in range of a valkyrie and good guy #1. He can target one or the other and must measure to the hull of the vehicle if targeting the valk since skimmer's bases are ignored.

In Box 2 there is a similar situation where there is good guy #2 taking position on a hill or mountain. Note that this is NOT a ruin. So those rules will not apply in this scenario.

In Box 3 things start to get complicated due to a bad guy squad member equipped with a flamer. As I see it, if he targets the valk then he must 'aim' the template towards the valkyrie in order to cover as much of the vehicle as possible. Since flame templates are about 8" long and the hull of the valk is 10 " away it would effectively be out of range and do no damage. Others argue you just lay the template flat and it acts like a column of fire hitting everything from good guy #1 to all the way to outer space and beyond. I've never seen a real flamethrower do that...

In Box 4 it's a similar situation. I want to know if the people arguing against me play it where good guy #1 and #2 get hit if they are within 8" in a two dimensional point of view. That seems silly to think two different units get hit even though they are separated by quite a distance in a three dimensional view.

In Boxes 5 and 6 I am showing the volume of the template by turning it on its side. I know this is not in the rulebook but it only covers the rules if you are always playing on a flat surface, never a dynamic battlefield. I feel that the most logical solution to this hole in the rulebook is to play the template as tall as it is wide. So in Boxes 5 and 6 the only model that would get hit is good guy #1 if you targeted him.

Box 7 shows the valk a little closer, just enough to get hit by the template but it doesn’t have the volume to hit good guy #1.

Box 8 shows the way most of you apparently play. Everything from ground level units, skimmers up in the air, and units way up in towers get hit if they are within 8 inches. That is lame.

Involving ruins into the scenario changes things because there are specific rules. Did you know skimmers can hit any level with a flamer regardless of where their base is sitting? Food for thought…

If you read all of this I thank you. If you understand any of this I applaud you. Hopefully my efforts show the logic in what I think is the correct way to play the game. If I failed then I hope you enjoyed my drawings.

[Gir]

Now I have to repeat myself because you didn't read the original problem. It's not the valkyrie i'm worried about getting hit by the template, it's the squad that just disembarked from it that is being hit as well. My opponent's squad had a melta and a heavy flamer. Shot the Valk with the melta then flamed the disembarked squad, effectively targeting two different units in one shooting phase. That's why I am arguing my point because that is one giant flame that is hitting my units.

If you replaced the Valkyrie with a devilfish or Wave serpant, what you say would happen in this same circumstance? (i.e: squad has disembarked from the transport, meltagun hits the transport, then the flamer is placed to hit the transport and also hits some of the disembarked squad).

The answer to this question is the same answer as the one to your question.

[Gir]

That seems silly to think two different units get hit even though they are separated by quite a distance in a three dimensional view.

3 dimensional view is abstracted, 2 demensional view isn't. See description of skimmers on page 65 of the rulebook (They hover a few meters above the ground, or abour the height of a space marine.)

[Cheeseburger!]

A few meters could mean 3 to 5 meters which is about 10 to 16 feet rounding. I thought space marines were 8 feet tall. And I bet when you flame a devilfish you hit the hull with the template when its on the base provided. Not a swing and a miss with the valkyrie. And how the hell is 3 dimensional abstract and 2D not??? We arent playing risk here. Warhammer is a 3D game. There is a problem I stumbled on and I am trying to find the best solution. You are just making up rules and saying I am wrong. reference these rules and I will shut up.