Plague of Plague Marines

[keithsilva]

you dont get FNP from AP2, weapons double your toughtness, or any close comabt attackes that iqnore armor saves. So if you dont get a ARMOR SAVE from the weapons you dont get FNP

[phoenyxx]

Yes, I am referring to the last line of the FNP rules, but I don't think I'm misinterpreting it. I'd be happy for a link to a FAQ or some other statement to say that I'm wrong though.

I don't have a rulebook handy, but the actual wording is something along the lines of, "You do not get an FNP roll any time that you would never get an armor save..."

You would never get an armor save when an AP3 weapon hits a unit with an armor save of 3+, and thus you would also not get a FNP roll.

[oni]

I don't think anyone but a power gamer or WAAC player will tell you that they're not broken.

[Bloodiedknight]

you dont get FNP from AP2, weapons double your toughtness, or any close comabt attackes that iqnore armor saves. So if you dont get a ARMOR SAVE from the weapons you dont get FNP

No, it's still possible to have your armour save ignored and get feel no pain, for example by being hit by an AP3 weapon as it doesn't come under any of the categories you just listed (assuming it isn't strength double your toughness of course).

[Brother Mord]

No, it's still possible to have your armour save ignored and get feel no pain, for example by being hit by an AP3 weapon as it doesn't come under any of the categories you just listed (assuming it isn't strength double your toughness of course).

This has been covered in many threads on many forums. The way its worded makes it easy to get wrong.

As mentioned AP1,2 or instant kills ignore FNP.

For a weapon to ignore FNP, The weapon itself has to allow no armor save, none, not ever under any circumstance.

A battle cannon, bolter ect... allows an armor save. The ap value can bypass certain targets armor save but the WEAPON itself does allow armor saves. So if you have FNP and you are hit by a battle cannon (provided you are cant be killed by instant death due to your toughness) you can use FNP, a terminator can make an armor save so FNP can be used against the battle cannon(again if you wouldnt be instant killed by it due to high toughness). If you are hit by a bolter but you are only wearing 5+save armor, you still get FNP because the bolter will allow someone, somewhere the ability to make an armor save, a marine wearing power armor for example . This is why they specifically mentioned AP1 and AP2 weapons. A plaguebearer has NO armor but has FNP, If it were opposite of what I listed above then a plaguebearer would never get to use its FNP against ranged attacks, except against lasguns maybe.

A power weapon or powerfist allows NO armor save, never under any circumstance. Remember armor saves are different from invulnerable saves. These are the types of weapons that cancel out FNP due to allowing NO armor saves.

There is no FAQ or other source to back this up because it is clearly written in the rules under FNP. Granted you have to pay close attention to the wording and its very easy to misinterprete but its there.

[phoenyxx]

This has been covered in many threads on many forums. The way its worded makes it easy to get wrong.

As mentioned AP1,2 or instant kills ignore FNP.

For a weapon to ignore FNP, The weapon itself has to allow no armor save, none, not ever under any circumstance.

A battle cannon, bolter ect... allows an armor save. The ap value can bypass certain targets armor save but the WEAPON itself does allow armor saves. So if you have FNP and you are hit by a battle cannon (provided you are cant be killed by instant death due to your toughness) you can use FNP, a terminator can make an armor save so FNP can be used against the battle cannon(again if you wouldnt be instant killed by it due to high toughness). If you are hit by a bolter but you are only wearing 5+save armor, you still get FNP because the bolter will allow someone, somewhere the ability to make an armor save, a marine wearing power armor for example . This is why they specifically mentioned AP1 and AP2 weapons. A plaguebearer has NO armor but has FNP, If it were opposite of what I listed above then a plaguebearer would never get to use its FNP against ranged attacks, except against lasguns maybe.

A power weapon or powerfist allows NO armor save, never under any circumstance. Remember armor saves are different from invulnerable saves. These are the types of weapons that cancel out FNP due to allowing NO armor saves.

There is no FAQ or other source to back this up because it is clearly written in the rules under FNP. Granted you have to pay close attention to the wording and its very easy to misinterprete but its there.

Thank you Brother Mord. That makes perfect sense to me. I've been meaning to argue this for quite some time, but just had not got around to it.

Thank you for clarifying that.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

You would never get an armor save when an AP3 weapon hits a unit with an armor save of 3+, and thus you would also not get a FNP roll.

Yes, the best way I explained it was by putting it like this: A unit with a 2+ armor save WOULD get an armor save against an AP3 weapon. It is still possible to get an armor save against an AP3 weapon if your armor is good enough. Thus, it does not negate FNP.

The only weapons that "never" give an armor save to anyone in the game, are AP1, AP2, and power weapons.

Ironically I actually don't find the plague marines broken at all. They are ridiculously good, of course, but I find that an all-plague marine list is easy to beat. Power fists and other high strength/low AP weaponry claim their lives 40-100 pts at a time and it's easy to whittle them to nothingness (especially since I generally find many plague marine players in my area are dense in the head or obsessed with being more Nurgly, and so tend not to make sound list-building decisions).

They are very good and maxing them out in a list is annoying, but their damage output will be negligible almost. Fire a few plasma cannons into them and watch them fold.

[oni]

Yes, I am referring to the last line of the FNP rules, but I don't think I'm misinterpreting it. I'd be happy for a link to a FAQ or some other statement to say that I'm wrong though.

I don't have a rulebook handy, but the actual wording is something along the lines of, "You do not get an FNP roll any time that you would never get an armor save..."

You would never get an armor save when an AP3 weapon hits a unit with an armor save of 3+, and thus you would also not get a FNP roll.

I see what you're saying, but that's not the intent. It gives specific examples of weapons and events in which armour saves are explicitly stated as being not allowed.

[Magos Bellum]

Most of the complaints that I have seen are along the lines of "I can't wipe them out in a single round with my huge boyz mob, so they must be broken!"

The key is that they are very durable against the basic attacks (shooting and close combat) of virtually all armies, which means that it requires specialist equiptment to eliminate them. Players with well balanced armies (or high strength/ap or power weapon/fist spam) shouldn't have a huge issue with them as (as has already been stated) they can't really do much offensively, so while the rest of the army rampages forward the plague marines don't, and the chaos army can be destroyed in detail.

Bottom line: they don't contribute much to the carnage unless you get up close to them: and every army has weapons that can rip them apart at range.

[Brother Mord]

Back on topic for me

My Brother plays an all plague marine army and I often fight them with my Black Templars and Imperial Guard.

While the high toughness and FNP make them hard to kill I have found that the fewer numbers, average damage output and lack of heavy weapons seems to balance this out. Our games are usually close run affairs coming down to who made the most mistakes and just plain who had crappy dice rolling.

I don't have a problem with the current plague marine set up.