BoLS community Grey Knights FAQ

[Bean]

Agree with Duo Sonata on all points.

With regards to five, the relevant rule is this:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately)."

So, the question is:
does a unit have BoP if and only if each of its members has BoP?
or does a unit have BoP if any of its members has BoP?

If you and I are going camping together and one of us has a stove, we (as a group) have a stove. It seems that a unit has a rule as long as any of its members has the rule, unless some other rule specifies otherwise. It doesn't matter whether Thrawn has BoP--his unit does, and he is not excluded by the Independent Character clause.

[celestialatc]

Agree with Duo Sonata on all points.

With regards to five, the relevant rule is this:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately)."

So, the question is:
does a unit have BoP if and only if each of its members has BoP?
or does a unit have BoP if any of its members has BoP?

If you and I are going camping together and one of us has a stove, we (as a group) have a stove. It seems that a unit has a rule as long as any of its members has the rule, unless some other rule specifies otherwise. It doesn't matter whether Thrawn has BoP--his unit does, and he is not excluded by the Independent Character clause.

This brings a question to my mind, that might be answered in the Grey Knight book but I don't have it with me. When you take Grand Master Mordrak and his ghost knights he acts as a unit leader for them. Does that mean the unit only gets to activate one psyhic power or since he does not have the BoP rule can he cast hammerhands and the unit can then cast force weapons? I know Mordrak is only a level 1 psyker so this unit might become a little better if he does not count since he does not have the BoP rule.

[Bean]

This brings a question to my mind, that might be answered in the Grey Knight book but I don't have it with me. When you take Grand Master Mordrak and his ghost knights he acts as a unit leader for them. Does that mean the unit only gets to activate one psyhic power or since he does not have the BoP rule can he cast hammerhands and the unit can then cast force weapons? I know Mordrak is only a level 1 psyker so this unit might become a little better if he does not count since he does not have the BoP rule.

Yes, I think that's exactly how it works, and I would say the same goes for Thrawn. The unit uses its one psychic power as per the BoP rule to activate the Force Weapon, Mordrak gets his power from his Mastery level, and that can be Hammerhand. Mordrak's force weapon is activated because the unit's activation power affects the whole unit, including Mordrak (as he is not an IC).

So, actually, I guess I don't agree with Duo on all points: I think Thrawn gets two powers and the BoP portion of the unit gets one.

[celestialatc]

Yes, I think that's exactly how it works, and I would say the same goes for Thrawn. The unit uses its one psychic power as per the BoP rule to activate the Force Weapon, Mordrak gets his power from his Mastery level, and that can be Hammerhand. Mordrak's force weapon is activated because the unit's activation power affects the whole unit, including Mordrak (as he is not an IC).

So, actually, I guess I don't agree with Duo on all points: I think Thrawn gets two powers and the BoP portion of the unit gets one.

If this is true, then why give Mordrak only one Psyhic power per turn but give Thawn two? If I remember correctly Mordrak has more powers then Thawn.

What I think is more likely is either:

A: Mordrak and Thawn can cast one power (Hammerhands) and are then unaffected by the unit's BoP rule and the squad can cast Force Weapons and so can Thawn (for have level 2) and Mordrak can't have force weapon attacks (but maybe the BoP does affect them and I am nerfing them in my mind).

B: Mordrak and Thawn are just like a justicar and their psyhic power rolls are the only ones the unit can have.

I want to lean towards A for one reason, double hammerhands without attaching multiple characters to a unit. It would make Mordrak and Thawn so much more attractive since I like Paladins more then Terminators. And Ghost knights are kind of crappy unless you like Mordrak.

[Bean]

If this is true, then why give Mordrak only one Psyhic power per turn but give Thawn two? If I remember correctly Mordrak has more powers then Thawn.

What I think is more likely is either:

A: Mordrak and Thawn can cast one power (Hammerhands) and are then unaffected by the unit's BoP rule and the squad can cast Force Weapons and so can Thawn (for have level 2) and Mordrak can't have force weapon attacks (but maybe the BoP does affect them and I am nerfing them in my mind).

B: Mordrak and Thawn are just like a justicar and their psyhic power rolls are the only ones the unit can have.

I want to lean towards A for one reason, double hammerhands without attaching multiple characters to a unit. It would make Mordrak and Thawn so much more attractive since I like Paladins more then Terminators. And Ghost knights are kind of crappy unless you like Mordrak.

Mordrak and Thrawn are not just like Justicars. They have Mastery--justicars do not. That said, Mordrak and Thrawn are exactly like each other--no matter how you cut it, Thrawn can use more powers than Mordrak. Whether or not that is a good design feature, it is definitely the way it works.

The only question is whether they get powers from Mastery in addition to the unit's power from BoP. I think they do--Mastery gives you some number of powers and BoP gives you one. There's no overlap written into the rules, so you should get both.

Noting that Mordrak gets fewer powers than Thrawn doesn't really constitute an objection to this position--Thrawn is just a more powerful, less knowledgeable psycher, end of story.

[celestialatc]

Mordrak and Thrawn are not just like Justicars. They have Mastery--justicars do not. That said, Mordrak and Thrawn are exactly like each other--no matter how you cut it, Thrawn can use more powers than Mordrak. Whether or not that is a good design feature, it is definitely the way it works.

The only question is whether they get powers from Mastery in addition to the unit's power from BoP. I think they do--Mastery gives you some number of powers and BoP gives you one. There's no overlap written into the rules, so you should get both.

Noting that Mordrak gets fewer powers than Thrawn doesn't really constitute an objection to this position--Thrawn is just a more powerful, less knowledgeable psycher, end of story.

Then I might be using Thawn and Mordrak more because it just makes then so much better in my mind. Being able to use their Psychic master with BoP would be awesome and would make up for Ghost Knights not being able to to take any Psycannons.

[Duo Sonata]

Just to note there is a suptle difference between Mordrak and Thawn. Thawn IS a justicar so he would be affected by the BoP rule for the purposes of perils and what not unlike Mordrak who is not a justicar but a Brother-Captain so if the Ghost Knights peril he isn't forced to take the wound.

The way I said for Thawn working was just one of many ways one could view it since rules for units of psykers are far from perfect for Grey Knights. However I do find the idea that Thawn and Mordrek's powers being used in addition to the Ghost Knight/Terminator Squad's powers to be rather intriguing, boosts the viability of such choices and is well within RAW.

[Bean]

Just to note there is a suptle difference between Mordrak and Thawn. Thawn IS a justicar so he would be affected by the BoP rule for the purposes of perils and what not unlike Mordrak who is not a justicar but a Brother-Captain so if the Ghost Knights peril he isn't forced to take the wound.

The way I said for Thawn working was just one of many ways one could view it since rules for units of psykers are far from perfect for Grey Knights. However I do find the idea that Thawn and Mordrek's powers being used in addition to the Ghost Knight/Terminator Squad's powers to be rather intriguing, boosts the viability of such choices and is well within RAW.

Good points.

Though it's worth noting that, by RAW, Thrawn isn't a Justicar. He's a Justicar Thrawn, which is distinct. There is no Justicar in a unit containing Justicar Thrawn. Unless this was addressed by the FAQ, which it might have been. I really don't remember.

The real question is what happens when a unit that never had a Justicar or Knight of the Flame suffers a perils. The rules tell you what to do when there is a Justicar or Knight of the Flame and what to do if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead, but units like Ghost Knights and Paladins meet neither criteria: what do they do? It seems that they should just randomize as if they'd had a Justicar or Knight of the Flame and it died, but the rules don't actually say that.

[Gir]

Good points.

Though it's worth noting that, by RAW, Thrawn isn't a Justicar. He's a Justicar Thrawn, which is distinct. There is no Justicar in a unit containing Justicar Thrawn. Unless this was addressed by the FAQ, which it might have been. I really don't remember.

Just remember that there's precedent in this codex for Fluff = rules.

[Duo Sonata]

Just remember that there's precedent in this codex for Fluff = rules.

Exactly...

Technically the Justicar for a terminator squad is upgraded to a Justicar Thawn so alittle RAI would be needed in this case since clearly Thawn is a Justicar in his fluff and this codex uses fluff as a basis for some of its rules...also there is no 'Justicar' rule in either units profile so one would have to go with the model's profile name which both have the word justicar, otherwise even the Terminator Justicar wouldn't count as a units Justicar since it's not a Justicar it's a Terminator Justicar.

As for the case of units with no justicar/knight of flame, it's best just not to think too much on wordings like that, Just try to use common sense and overlook it, Book wasn't exactly written as well or clear as it should have so trying to go with scrictly RAW is something of a dead end.