Article on Fanboys, Exclusivity, and Sonic the Hedgehog

[Verilance]

you could always do what I did as a wee bairn, I used my coin collection as soldiers. each one was a different class so to speak pennies up till Silver Dollars (the monarch of my little realm) they fought many battles on my bed, my floor etc.

my point...

Game Systems only matter because of the story they present, for my money and time of all the miniature companies out there GW provides the best balance between likable back story for the world and each army, and quality of miniatures. It may not always be so but on a very limited budget you have to choose to buy what you like most as opposed to seeing what else is available.

[wittdooley]

Your response really doesn't make any sense. I think you actually believe you're countering EGs post, but you really don't. I think, perhaps, you're confused on the difference between objective and subjective, which is entirely possible if you're not an English speaker.

Despite that, I really didn't address that argument at all in the article. We can do pricing comparisons until we're blue in the face, but I left that out because it wasn't relevant to the article.

I'd love for you to better articulate the "objective negatives," as without doing so it's really, really hard for any of us to respond to you.

And FWIW, I mention three other companies in the article beyond simply GW and PP; I highlighted them because they are without question the two largest players.

[Verilance]

Can someone with greater understanding than I please explain why Warmachine/Hordes is compared to 40K anyway? From looking at the models, reading a bit of the background etc it seems to me that other than being a skirmish type game it has far more in common with WFB,

It is certainly not War in the Dark Future at any rate

as you might have guessed the story of a game matters to me

[wittdooley]

They really don't have anything in common in terms of background or gameplay. I've tried to explain that numerous times. No one likes to listen.

Because they're so different is part of the reason I play both.

[scadugenga]

Can someone with greater understanding than I please explain why Warmachine/Hordes is compared to 40K anyway? From looking at the models, reading a bit of the background etc it seems to me that other than being a skirmish type game it has far more in common with WFB,

It is certainly not War in the Dark Future at any rate

as you might have guessed the story of a game matters to me

When you get down to it, the comparison is really PP & GW. And as for why, my guess is that PP and GW are the two biggest kids on the block--with GW being the much larger kid.

People substitute 40k for GW as 40k is the most recognizable product that GW produces.

[relasine]

Oh, there's anti-PP trolling on the WM/H forums, it's just nowhere near the level that you see happening in the 40k forums.

I chalk that up to 40k (and WFB) being the "entry point" for the majority of new(er) gamers. 40k is all they know, so when they get disillusioned, some end up getting all "born again grass-is-greener-esque" and start trying to regurgitate their opinion on everyone else's plate.

You don't see many gamers' entry-point being PP. It's something people discover having already been in the community after awhile, so there's less "BAGiG" going on the reverse direction.

Maybe the trolling tends to stem from some partially-hidden self-esteem problem. Like the troll's image of self-worth is somehow tied in to the perception of their favorite game or something.

I think the reason you see a lot of negative sentiment about GW is because there's a lot to be negative about. There are things that could largely be considered a matter of opinion (quality of the rule set, fiction, etc.), but there are also a lot of things that the grand majority of gamers are pretty unhappy with, indefensible things, particularly when they've moved from Games Workshop games to Privateer Press ones.

• They switched their metal line to resin (a cheaper material), increased the price, and to top that off, the quality control of the first batch of Finecast miniatures was pretty lousy.
• You can't play Specialist Games in a Games Workshop Store. That means no Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Epic, Warmaster, etc.
• They don't have a tournament program. Not only does Privateer Press have a tournament program with lots of built-in options, they update the thing yearly.
• Their distribution methods are draconian. Ask your LGS owner how much Lord of the Rings product they are required to keep on the shelf to maintain status as a Stockist Retailer. Ask someone from New Zealand how much they're now paying for a box of Tactical Marines.
• Social media and the internet are anathema to them.
• Their system for updating armies is antiquated. PP showed us that you can successfully update every single model in the game (both Warmachine and Hordes) over six months with a new rules edition. There are still two 3rd Edition and four 4th Edition (not counting Orks) codecies awaiting update. 5th Edition launched three years ago.
• They don't have a proper army construction computer program for games that severely need them. Instead I have to rely on an unlicensed subscription service that skirts the domain of IP violation by relying on the community to violate it for them.
• There's an apparent disconnect between the game design studio and modeling studio. If a model doesn't come out in the first wave of new releases, you're often looking at 50/50 chances of not seeing the model at all unless you want to shell out big bucks for Forge World kits or learn to sculpt. They are admittedly getting better at this, but there are still gaps that will never be filled.

That's a barrel of negative, I know. There's also a lot to love about GW and what they do, but the stuff I listed above can weigh on a veteran after awhile. Hell, in my experience the people who complain most about GW are people who currently play their games.

Privateer Press isn't a perfect company. Their current product supply problem is a big problem that has been going on for almost a year. Their sculpts are often hit-or-miss. Mispacks (for me at least) have been an issue over the years. That said, if you're unhappy about anything I listed above, Privateer Press can look like a beacon of light.

[wkz]

Can someone with greater understanding than I please explain why Warmachine/Hordes is compared to 40K anyway? From looking at the models, reading a bit of the background etc it seems to me that other than being a skirmish type game it has far more in common with WFB,

It is certainly not War in the Dark Future at any rate

as you might have guessed the story of a game matters to me

Fluffwise...
WHFB: Grimdark Fantasy!!
40k: Grimdark Fantasy!! In Space!!
WM/Hordes: (slightly less) Grimdark Fantasy!! With Steampunk!!
Note that "sightly less" is an average. Some factions and sub-factions are glowing so darn bright it hurts... not that they have their dirty bits, but others are "void of the Blackhole" dark

Focus...
WHFB: Big Monsters, Big Artillery, Big Blocks of Infantry, oh my!!
40k: Space Marines. ... ... *ahem* Beyond that, armies of Metal Bawkses and that "Modern war" feel (if not outright futuristic)
WM/Hordes: The Mr McAwesomesauce leading your army (or sometimes Madam). Also: Warjacks.

Gameplay Focus...
WHFB: Magic phase. ... ... *ahem* Movement and Maneuver with the most unresponsive blocks of miniatures this side of wargaming.
40k: Somehow, everyone is well armored enough to survive long enough to launch an absolutely brutal Close Combat. Except Tau. F*sk Tau.
WM/Hordes: Aim for the Warcaster, Boo!! Aim! For! The! Warcaster!!

In a nutshell...
WHFB: Tabletop miniature wargaming.
40k: Tabletop miniature wargaming.
WM/Hordes: Tabletop miniature wargaming.

The reason why the games are compared is because of that last point, despite differences everywhere else...

[eldargal]

Just to respond to a few of your points:

1)The Finecast price hike was 'lousy', no argument there.
2) You can, it depends on the store. Also, join a hobby club if you can, then it doesn't matter.
3) GW doesn't release tournament focused rulesets, PP does. To me this is one of the best things about GW.
4) Antipodean prices are certainly obscene, the LOTR thing is a contractual obligation to New Line Cinema or whoever it is, not really in GWs control.
5) Disagree, they don't utilise it fully but few corporations do to be honest.
6) Apples and oranges, PP armies have a few unit types that do much the same thing in, what, ten armies? GW has twenty nine armies accross two game systems which need updating.
7) Who cares? Honestly. I have this thing called a calculator and wordpad which works brilliantly.
8) No, there is a disconnect between the design and modelling departments and the marketing department. Bear in mind GW have tried various methods over the past thirty years and currently believe this system works best for them.

Again a lot of these are subjective issues, like the tournament thing and the army program, not exactly objective. Others most certainly are, GWs antipodean pricing and Finecast price rises were extremely poor form. I understand why they are doing it, but still there must be better ways of shoring up antipodean sales and the savings on resin would pay for the costs of the change soon enough.

I think the reason you see a lot of negative sentiment about GW is because there's a lot to be negative about. There are things that could largely be considered a matter of opinion (quality of the rule set, fiction, etc.), but there are also a lot of things that the grand majority of gamers are pretty unhappy with, indefensible things, particularly when they've moved from Games Workshop games to Privateer Press ones.

• They switched their metal line to resin (a cheaper material), increased the price, and to top that off, the quality control of the first batch of Finecast miniatures was pretty lousy.
• You can't play Specialist Games in a Games Workshop Store. That means no Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Epic, Warmaster, etc.
• They don't have a tournament program. Not only does Privateer Press have a tournament program with lots of built-in options, they update the thing yearly.
• Their distribution methods are draconian. Ask your LGS owner how much Lord of the Rings product they are required to keep on the shelf to maintain status as a Stockist Retailer. Ask someone from New Zealand how much they're now paying for a box of Tactical Marines.
• Social media and the internet are anathema to them.
• Their system for updating armies is antiquated. PP showed us that you can successfully update every single model in the game (both Warmachine and Hordes) over six months with a new rules edition. There are still two 3rd Edition and four 4th Edition (not counting Orks) codecies awaiting update. 5th Edition launched three years ago.
• They don't have a proper army construction computer program for games that severely need them. Instead I have to rely on an unlicensed subscription service that skirts the domain of IP violation by relying on the community to violate it for them.
• There's an apparent disconnect between the game design studio and modeling studio. If a model doesn't come out in the first wave of new releases, you're often looking at 50/50 chances of not seeing the model at all unless you want to shell out big bucks for Forge World kits or learn to sculpt. They are admittedly getting better at this, but there are still gaps that will never be filled.

That's a barrel of negative, I know. There's also a lot to love about GW and what they do, but the stuff I listed above can weigh on a veteran after awhile. Hell, in my experience the people who complain most about GW are people who currently play their games.

Privateer Press isn't a perfect company. Their current product supply problem is a big problem that has been going on for almost a year. Their sculpts are often hit-or-miss. Mispacks (for me at least) have been an issue over the years. That said, if you're unhappy about anything I listed above, Privateer Press can look like a beacon of light.

[relasine]

Just to respond to a few of your points:

1)The Finecast price hike was 'lousy', no argument there.
2) You can, it depends on the store. Also, join a hobby club if you can, then it doesn't matter.
3) GW doesn't release tournament focused rulesets, PP does. To me this is one of the best things about GW.
4) Antipodean prices are certainly obscene, the LOTR thing is a contractual obligation to New Line Cinema or whoever it is, not really in GWs control.
5) Disagree, they don't utilise it fully but few corporations do to be honest.
6) Apples and oranges, PP armies have a few unit types that do much the same thing in, what, ten armies? GW has twenty nine armies accross two game systems which need updating.
7) Who cares? Honestly. I have this thing called a calculator and wordpad which works brilliantly.
8) No, there is a disconnect between the design and modelling departments and the marketing department. Bear in mind GW have tried various methods over the past thirty years and currently believe this system works best for them.

Again a lot of these are subjective issues, like the tournament thing and the army program, not exactly objective. Others most certainly are, GWs antipodean pricing and Finecast price rises were extremely poor form. I understand why they are doing it, but still there must be better ways of shoring up antipodean sales and the savings on resin would pay for the costs of the change soon enough.

On number two, standing GW policy is that you can't play Specialist Games in their stores. If you're lucky enough to have a red shirt who will overlook that rule, then that's fantastic. Yes, you can start your own club and play at a non-GW game store or at a friend's house, but the issue is that the policy itself is ridiculous, not that you can get around it.

On number three, I'm not talking about the ruleset; I'm talking about tournament programs. If you don't like tournies, that's fine, but lots of gamers do, and that's what tournament programs are for. What happened to the outrider program? Why did they get rid of it?

On number five, I can't understand how you disagree. What was the last podcast that a GW staffer came on? Why don't they have forums? Where can I go online to get a rules question answered by a company representative?

On number six, that's the excuse? They have more armies to support? PP released updated rules for 11 factions in six months, and it's a tiny company. Why can't Games Workshop do the same thing for their 29 armies in 18 months? Hell, double that to three years. Double that even. They still won't do it. The fact that they use such a limited design space for their game (which is not a bad thing itself), which should make a mass update easier, just adds insult to injury. I'll give them credit for finally updating the Tau codex so that Devilfish don't give up three kill points or to make all Storm Shields grant a 3+ invulnerable, but even that took three years after 5th edition was launched.

On number seven, A lot of people care. Army construction programs remove the human error part of army building. I just got back from Wargames Con where every player I saw had their armies printed out via Army Builder. Adepticon was the same way.

On number eight, it might work for them, but it doesn't for their customers. I'd love to be able to throw a Hydra on the field for less than $70 + shipping from the UK, or have a model for the Tervigon. It'd be real nice to be able to build Autocannon Dreads without having to buy two kits that total up to $67.

[eldargal]

Well for five, I disagree it is anathema, I agree they don't use it well. They have some good design podcasts on their website, their blog is a hell of a lot better than a lot of companies and the website is quite efficient too.

How many unit types does each faction in WM have? How different are those unit types to each other? The variety of 40k alone blows away WM, it is a far, far more complex system and takes longer to update. PP can do it faster because they are a tiny operation that doesn't have to arrange the printing of hundreds of thousands of books and kits months in advance of a release to satisfy initial demand. It is also part of their business model, staggered releases to give people time to save money between releases so they spend more. It works for GW, so they will continue. Having said that Harry on Warseer, I think, said we should see a change in the frequency with which they update army books and codices.

An army builder program is hardly essential, GW are undeer no obligation to create one when there would be little profit in it for them. Even if all tournament players everywhere want one that is still a minority of the GW playerbase. Criticising GW for this would be like criticising a car company for not releasing cups to go with their cupholders.