Republic?

[condottiere]

I think the Gretchin are ready for a Republican model of government:

1. French Revolution - they overthrow Ork aristocracy and institute a reign of terror, until a shorter than normal Gretchin takes over the reins of power.

2. American Revolution - they expel Orks from some of their outlying planetary bodies and form a union pursuing happiness.

3. Russian Revolution - The Eldar brainwash a Gretchin with a goatee; he's followed by one with a moustache who successfully repels Imperium incursions.

[Lockark]

3. Russian Revolution - The Eldar brainwash a Gretchin with a goatee; he's followed by one with a moustache who successfully repels Imperium incursions.

[url]http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/goblins-troopers-soviet-set-10-p-287.html[/url]

[url]http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/goblins-generals-soviet-set-p-291.html[/url]

Very fun modles. Seen alot of people do count-as guard with them.

[Crae]

First of, sorry for derailing the discussion a bit, but it has gotten very interesting .
Secondly I agree with most about Eldar being your best bet for a Republic way of thinking
Thirdly I would recommend Ork's as the best army to start out with, as they are fun, fast to learn (depending on build of cause) and straight up super cool and really forgiving to paint (Nobody expects a ork trukk to have an expert paint job after all ).

and lastly yo Eldargal:

The Imperium IS a single party state. The definition of single party, is that there is no other political group then that party, there is no political opposition. There might be different interest groups in the party, but all power is by de facto with the Highlords council. They decides who can join and who cant, with certain seats fixed. There is and wont ever be a "opposition" in the Highlords council. Just because there is different interest represented in Highlords council, doesn't mean its not single party. Single party means there is no opposition to the current ruling party. The Impire doesn't allow any political opposition to the imperial way. They will in fact squash any opposition or force it into submission.

Facism doesn't mean there is no divine/religious aspect or disallows it. Certainly it has played a big aspect in many early fascist states, especially the heightening of a "charismatic individual" to something godlike like, Mousolini, Stalin, Hitler to mention a few.

Not to mention that Mousoline had to accept and incorporate the Roman catholic church with certain restrictions into his state, even thou he was very anti religion and an atheist (like the Emperor was) but he couldn't get the Italians to "not belive" and had to accept them as a part of the state. Kinda reminds me of "The Emperor god divine" movement that flared up during and after the Heresy, that the leaders couldn't ignore, even thou they where against it ?

The whole "One truth, one peopleall under one rule" ideology, is very fascist. All thou it might not affect individual planets day to day workings, they are required to be pro Impire and they have no say what so ever when it comes to being under the rule of the Impire.

While I can agree see certain aspects of the feudal system, applies to the Impire I still don't see it as feudal, since the feudal system is build on the principal of a lord, vassal and fief. The king grants some one land and in return they provide taxes, military power and rule the land. The vassals represent the law and they control military power and so on in their tief. But because each tief has military power, they represent a significant power, and if several where to go together, they are powerful enough to take power for them self and that is where the Feudal system doesn't apply to the Impire. The king is ruler and head of state, the barons, dukes and so on, his sword to keep his underlings in place. His power ultimately rest in his vassals being loyal to him and their in, they posses a certain amount of political power. A King only rules as long as he is powerful enough, having strong enough vassals that no one else will oppose him, as we have seen often enough, through out history, vassals at time become so powerful them self, that they become kings/rulers that via military or economic might.
The rulers of a planet represent no power, since if they where to oppose the Impire they would just be removed and strong armed into submission or annihilated.

I don't disagree on the Empereor being God, but the ruling party isn't in power via the divine (even thou they want others to think they are - propaganda) but via all dominating military and political power. Several parts of the Imperial system is directly anti-religious like several of the Spacemarine chapters and the Adeptus Mechanicum. A totalitarian theocracy with a monotheistic god wouldn't allow that, if they where in power (As we saw with Gorge Vandir declaring the Mechanicum and Spacemarines heretics).

Fascism can allow for several parties to have a certain amount of power, as long as they defer to their rule ultimately. Several facist states allow other parties to form, but they have no say other then to advise or discus things and they all have to be supportive of the state, opposition isn't tolerated.

The Impire is a Empire and it is in my opinion ruled by a fascist totalitarian state.

Impire = rule by fear, propaganda, terror and total power by the single party central government, that has unlimited power and no opposition.

Stalin is still perceived by many former soviet citizens to be a hero.....we might know differently, but they only heard and saw what his propaganda machine told about him..........

ps. I apologise if my English is bad,it isn't my first language.
pps. We are probably going to have to end with agreeing to disagree


[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state[/URL]

The Imperium isn't a single party state though. If anything the High Lords are the equivalent of a medieval kings council, or regency council. The way the Imperium is structured is feudal, not fascist.

Iran is a theocracy and yet is isn't ruled by god either, it doesn't matter the state justifies its control through the religion, just as the Imperium does. A fascist state justifies its control because it holds the supreme authority is the state. That alone debars the Imperium from being fascist.

The Imperium is certainly totalitarian, but it is equally certainly feudal. Each planet is largely independent and left alone so long as it pays its tithes. There is very little direct involvement of the central bureaucracy (Adeptus Administratum) in the day to day lives of the citizens. They pay their tithes ot the planetary lord, their feudal lord, who pays the alotted share on to the central authority. The Imperial Guard are forces maintain by the planet in the form of a military tihe, just like in Feudal Europe where each lord was expected to maintain armed forces on behalf of the supreme ruler.

You then have the Ecclesiarchy with its own armed forces (again anathema to fascism, they took the monopolisation of force very seriously) with its own worlds and tithes. You have the Space Marines, private armies largely indepednent of the state but dedicates to its protection (militant orders, another point to feudal, see above for private armies being anathema to fascism). Etcetera

[eldargal]

No, the Imperium is a no party state. They don't even pay lipservice to the idea that the people are important in the decision making process like Communism and Fascism do.

Your description of feudalism is exactly how the planets in the Imperium are run, with the planetary lord being the feudal lord, the High Lords being the equivalent of the ruling council and the Emperor the Divine King at the top.

We will have to agree to disagree yes, I see totalitarian aspects but I see no fascist aspects. Not in the Imperium as a whole anyway, some armies and planets etc are depicted as having fascist elements.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I am a nid player myself, but here is my take on the idea of orks vs tau.

if you are a new player, tau can and are very unforgiving, and you have to pretty much know what your doing to succeed with them. they are very ranged and if you dont constantly move or protect your ranged units your pretty boned, and deeps strike can really **** your world up, as can outflanking.

orks are easy to learn, and if you make a mistake you can make up for it. they have a lot of random crazy shinanegans that are just funny to watch because of how they work. from my understanding they are really easy to learn, and have lots of viable options to play around with.

hell as for painting they are very forgiving, you can pretty much do what you want as long as you make their skin green and splash some red in here and there. hell ive seen kill a kans made from old GW paint pots, or a Stompa walker made from a Mr. Potatoe head. really ive seen people only buy GW models for their infantry, and build their trucks out of cheap toy trucks from toys r us with a little conversion with plasticard and painting to make it look orky. i mean the sky is the limit with creativity with the orks, and that is the nice part about them. they arent my style and thus i probably wont play them myself, but should a friend ever ask me to help them make their ork army, i would be happy to help.

btw, as for the mr potatoe head titan, ill link it below
[url]http://www.irondogstudios.com/images/tater/mek_tater.html[/url]

hell just being able to do that is almost enough to make me want to play orks, than i remember how hyper masculine they are and im turned off. but i would love to do things like this just for fun. this is like the epitome of epic conversion

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Damn Eldargal, are you a political science grad student or something? I'm not being sarcastic when I say you seem to know your stuff.

[eldargal]

I studied a little politics at university yes, but not as part of my degree. A lot of it comes from my interest in history and my own families history.

[celestialatc]

I know everyone is kind of writing off chaos because they see them as dictatorships and that is mostly true of the Original Traitor Legions. But you could make a renegade SM legion of chaos (or space marines or IG) that have turned from the Imperium to bring a republic society totheir system. Maybe your legion thinks their system should have an autonomous rule and that they are the only ones who should control their destiny. You could make up your own heroes based on historical figures from democratic revolutions like Chapter Master George Washington, Librarian Maximilien Robespierre or Commissar Simon Bolivar.

[Crae]

Fascism and Communism was initially based on the working class having a say, but as they evolved they both turned into something else. Both fascism and communism in their worst form gave NO power to the individual citizen. It was the power holders that decided for them. Their Ideology was to be followed or you where an enemy of the state. As I said, Mussolini had to give way for the Roman catholic church, since he couldn't force people into not believing in god. The whole story of the imperium screams ****sm/fascism with certain aspects of Stalin's soviet.....its a very very grey world.

Being a vassal means you in return sit on a large amount of power and represent a certain political power in the nation.....in the Imperium a planet ruler might be powerful on that planet, but as a whole to the Imperium, he is more or less just the janitor....
Feudalism implies the sharing of power...the Imperium doesn't share, they monopolise it. The Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum are necessary evils to the state, just like the catholic church and the private landowners and industrial powers where in Mussolini's fascist italy.

By definition: An empire is a group of states or peoples under the control of a centralized ruling authority

Definition of EMPIRE
1
a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit

[URL="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empire"]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empire[/URL]

The system by which the Impire holds control over its territories is definitely the Imperial model. The Impire was after all conquered and dominated via Imperialism and the planets where either by wish (or no choise) or force brought under Imperial rule.

Empire not feudal......


But again...We got to agree to disagree. I just think you see the Imperium a bit more rosy then I do .

No, the Imperium is a no party state. They don't even pay lipservice to the idea that the people are important in the decision making process like Communism and Fascism do.

Your description of feudalism is exactly how the planets in the Imperium are run, with the planetary lord being the feudal lord, the High Lords being the equivalent of the ruling council and the Emperor the Divine King at the top.

We will have to agree to disagree yes, I see totalitarian aspects but I see no fascist aspects. Not in the Imperium as a whole anyway, some armies and planets etc are depicted as having fascist elements.

[Thornblood]

Orks iz a democracy. A potential warboss puts himself forward for election. There is then a contest held between the two candidates (with headbutting replacing thinking). Then the orks vote by following who they think is the stronger candidate (normally because the opposition is now dead). Whilst Orks seem to govern through "oo's da biggest" and might makes right, they do flock around those they want to follow. The society/government dosn't force them to follow a specific warboss, they seem to simply choose. Sometimes there is only a choice of one because the biggest one has killed the other opponents.

Of Course Ghazagkull is a different matter. Due to his religious connotations.