SoB WD codex 'leaked'

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Um....isn't that a Multi Melta not a flamer. Its no excuse for GW to get it wrong, just goes to show that lack of proof reading, caring and detail that GW should have put into this in the first place.
Guess they just prove their laziness and doing a hack job that this WD codex is.

[wallweasels]

-snip- big quote about celestians and tarpits -snip-

Storm Troopers have evolved into more of a shock trooper role when before they were an alternate form of "elite" troops like veterans. Now Storm troopers are a "very" elite unit in IG terms. But the net result was them being more "behind enemy line" shock troops...but Celestians are literally just veterans. They are bodyguards to the leaders, generally act better than the rest of the army, and in some cases go on veteran specific missions. But during a crusade its all guns blazing like everyone else. It is Dominions that have always been more the shock troop, and especially more so with the scout rules (even now says so in their fluffy-text before the rules). Regardless celestians are our "long beards". Simple as that. They are trained in all forms because celestian untis are formed literally from every type of sister.

Its an improvement that was not really required. We didn't need to punch marines with celestians mostly since celestians just were not worth the cost. We wanted veteran sisters...yet all we got was non-scoring units that performed functionally like battle sisters but at +2 points each. I saw more air time of celestians during 4th edtion where they could score and take objectives. So far better at combat, but that is not what people used them for. Although that is what they were kind of implied to be decent at combat or should be...they just were...well Andy Hoare likes to write more fluff than good rules.

Tarpits help for sure and it is a good way to make more tactical play on the table for both sides. Before that could be done with any squad, regardless of what type, that was capable of getting off faith. Because don't think of it in fluff terms as "their job" to be tarpit...but more that they are risking their lifes and being saved by the faith alone from death because they are trying to save their fellow sisters. I honestly cannot think ANYTHING more backed by fluff than sisters fanatical devotion to risk their lives to save someone else, especially members of the Ecclesiarchy that are important. Sister convents have held off forces long enough to let people and relics be evacuated. That is literally an ENTIRE ARMY tarpitting the enemy to save someone else.

Kind of just see above on this one. However really? In the fluff they wouldn't jut 1-1 toe beat out a veteran space marine...yet there will be significantly larger amounts of Celestians than veteran marines which means they could then be on an even level purely that there is a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio. Table Top doesn't have to be hard core to the fluff in balancing while it should give a feel or imply the fluff. Regardless...some decent points and if celestians are buffed thats great...but like many things in this book they made some decent changes but at the cost of massively changing EVERYTHING else.

[edit] this is what I posted last night that needed to be apporved by a moderator...so hopefully it doesnt just magically appear. Do really long posts require moderator approval or something? :x Either way it may not make to much sense since I broke it down per paragraph you had and quotes and such etc. Anyway...I agree with Calypso on this.
What are celestians really "meant" to do here? If they are troops they definitely wont get TONS of fancy rules or special ammos etc. Most likely they will just be a slightly more costly Battle Sister thats min of 5 max of 10 and probably has the option of an extra heavy weapon.
My bet is:
Battle sisters: get 1 special and 1 heavy and maybe 1 more special/heavy if they go over 15 models.
Celestians: get 1 heavy/special and another heavy/special at 10 models. This allows for kind of a veteran feel in weapon options and may have special melee options as their choices too for more of a combat focus. Either way it doesn't sound amazing for a unit thats description wants me to bash someone skull in

I have this feeling that we end up just being a kind of "razorback spam" army :/ Which will only give off the impression that we are just wanna-be MEQ. Hopefully large squads maybe some foot troops and stuff will be viable...but I doubt it without some form of resilience. 6++ hardly counts as resilience :x

Sister Rosette: I agree entirely. For a GW codex this has had some of the more obvious mistakes in it. To the degree that people thought these scans were fakes (god I wished that was true). But I agree with some people that if an codex had NO mistakes in it...I'd probably say it was faked GW always makes a few little mistakes :| But labeling a multi-melta a heavy bolter? Now that is just a pure lack of proofreading.

[Nabterayl]

You are missing my point, which is that Celestians being more killy than they were is not a useful upgrade that in any way increases their utility to a SoB player. It is like making Grots more killly - Yes they might kill 1 more MEQ, but at the end of the day they are not there to assault. How about I give Khorne Berserkers BS 6? Also irrelevant because that is not their job.

Right now Celestians are there to ride in an Immolator and carry two Meltas. Their Faith lets them absorb the charge and stick for a turn.

What is the job of the new Celestians? Their Faith power (Relentless, MTC), grenades and 2 base attacks makes them SEEM like it should be assault. Base I3, S3 no power weapons no CCW (I did not see one on the leaked page, maybe I am wrong) suggests they are not assaulters. They cannot beat basic troops even though they are 'elite' in assault, so what are they?

Maybe I need to see the whole picture to understand, but in terms of what they used to do well it appears to me that they do it worse and the things they never did well they do marginally better.

Also, I would rather not have grenades on all my SoB standard - who is actually assaulting with SoB and in the past I would rather go with two S5 hits on rear armor from HotW than a single S6 grenade.

I think I do understand your point, but until we know what the unit's options are I don't think we can make that call. Fluff-wise, grots aren't supposed to kill and berzerkers aren't supposed to shoot, but I never felt that 3rd edition celestians fit their fluff. They are supposed to (I think) engage in offensive close combat after preparatory bolter fire.

Storm Troopers have evolved into more of a shock trooper role when before they were an alternate form of "elite" troops like veterans. Now Storm troopers are a "very" elite unit in IG terms. But the net result was them being more "behind enemy line" shock troops...but Celestians are literally just veterans. They are bodyguards to the leaders, generally act better than the rest of the army, and in some cases go on veteran specific missions. But during a crusade its all guns blazing like everyone else. It is Dominions that have always been more the shock troop, and especially more so with the scout rules (even now says so in their fluffy-text before the rules). Regardless celestians are our "long beards". Simple as that. They are trained in all forms because celestian untis are formed literally from every type of sister.

See, the point I was trying to make is that there is no such thing as a "behind enemy line" shock trooper. That's a commando. Using a commando "guns blazing like everyone else" is a misuse of that asset. "Guns blazing" is a storm\\shock trooper. In IG terms, it's the difference between a storm trooper, who is a highly trained, highly equipped soldier whose purpose and expertise is to conduct behind-the-lines actions, and a grenadier, who is an equally highly trained, highly equipped soldier whose purpose and expertise is to go in guns blazing. In general Imperial terms, if you upgrade a storm trooper, you get a space marine. If you upgrade a grenadier, you get a battle sister.

Its an improvement that was not really required. We didn't need to punch marines with celestians mostly since celestians just were not worth the cost. We wanted veteran sisters...yet all we got was non-scoring units that performed functionally like battle sisters but at +2 points each. I saw more air time of celestians during 4th edtion where they could score and take objectives. So far better at combat, but that is not what people used them for. Although that is what they were kind of implied to be decent at combat or should be...they just were...well Andy Hoare likes to write more fluff than good rules.

Oh, totally agreed with that. What I think celestians should be (and never have been) is a unit that is or can get in your face and mow you down like dominions can, and unlike dominions can follow through and finish you off at the edge of a sarissa.

Tarpits help for sure and it is a good way to make more tactical play on the table for both sides. Before that could be done with any squad, regardless of what type, that was capable of getting off faith. Because don't think of it in fluff terms as "their job" to be tarpit...but more that they are risking their lifes and being saved by the faith alone from death because they are trying to save their fellow sisters. I honestly cannot think ANYTHING more backed by fluff than sisters fanatical devotion to risk their lives to save someone else, especially members of the Ecclesiarchy that are important. Sister convents have held off forces long enough to let people and relics be evacuated. That is literally an ENTIRE ARMY tarpitting the enemy to save someone else.

I did like the resilience that Spirit of the Martyr gave, I just didn't like the feel of doing it through magical invulnerable power armor. I agree that sisters can, will, and do sacrifice themselves to protect others, and I think that's a hugely important part of their fluff, flavor, even their moral center. But when I think of how sisters defend things, I don't think it would look "defensive" in the way most people think of that. Like any highly trained soldier, I'm sure if you put sisters behind a wall and said "defend these battlements" they would make a good show of it. But I also think their very strong preference would be to defend by attacking.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Its no excuse for GW to get it wrong, just goes to show that lack of proof reading, caring and detail that GW should have put into this in the first place.
Guess they just prove their laziness and doing a hack job that this WD codex is.

That's why I posted it. Good "ammo" for sisters players to prove how bad the WD dex is. The fact they got something as simple as that wrong is kind of shocking really...

[Kawauso]

That's why I posted it. Good "ammo" for sisters players to prove how bad the WD dex is. The fact they got something as simple as that wrong is kind of shocking really...

It isn't if the rumours are true about this being a super-rushed stop-gap so that they had something to release this month.

[Verilance]

That's why I posted it. Good "ammo" for sisters players to prove how bad the WD dex is. The fact they got something as simple as that wrong is kind of shocking really...

that's nothing, what's really funny is that in the article it says next months battle report will be versus Tyranids yet on the back page it says vs Orks

maybe it is just versus Biovores

[the jeske]

the one vs nids was deemed too unbalanced , if I remember the word right , some non english WD crews had a lot of "fun" with translating the whole thing again almost on the same day as the WD went to print .

But in the end does it matter ? they dont cost less . GW tells us they do , because they gave sob frags and kraks and pistols which they before didnt have/had to pay for . The fact that they will probably never use those is unimportant . what is important is that technicly they are 3 pts cheaper then they could have made them . + in larger games faith scaling is not a problem , all w40k gamers are good chaps and they will surely let sob players roll 2d6 or 3d6 in the case of apo games.


But jokes aside . Faith or not , low points or not[perspective thing anyway . a necron player will say sobs are undercosted] , how does GW want sob to work? if they dont get to charge ,which can well happen in the world of grand strategies giving scout and/or rhinos moving 18". they cant use faith on opponent turn as points go away at the end of your own turn . without the faith buffs in hth they die a lot , from shoting they die a lot too .

they swarn is not as good BA mecha swarm [same number of models only better save . and the rhino version isnt even top tier] and against armies that are gunline like IG or razorspams [doesnt realy matter out of which dex as long as it is not the DA one] they will have huge problems with surviving long enough to get in to 12" range.


But what I find most funy is the +6inv. too low to save you in hth and everywhere else cover is +4. Made me realy lol when I read it.

[Fibonacci]

]The celestians get 10 bolt pistol shots (no faith) prior to assault.

Oh, we are bringing in shooting in to the assault.

Same squad from WH codex rapid firing with Divine Guidance .... 5.2675 dead MEQ

Sisters are not assault troops. Not even after the "upgraded." If SoB were assault troops, then why are there no assault vehicles available? You have proven again and again that the best a SoB can do is break even with the worst a SM can do. Besides, how many Celestine squads can you put on the table? And how many tac squads can be fielded against them?

So why stick with SM? I mean we all know that against Khorn bezerkers (a standard troop choice) it is not even going to be funny. Why not run the same mathhammer on an orc squad?

[Nabterayl]

Oh, we are bringing in shooting in to the assault.

Same squad from WH codex rapid firing with Divine Guidance .... 5.2675 dead MEQ

... Why wouldn't we bring shooting in to the assault? How well a unit can shoot in the turn before it charges is part of its charging prowess. That's why I didn't incorporate the DG rapid firing. You can't rapid fire with divine guidance and charge. Are old sisters better at shooting on a woman for woman basis? Of course they are, at least against MEQs.

Sisters are not assault troops. Not even after the "upgraded." If SoB were assault troops, then why are there no assault vehicles available? You have proven again and again that the best a SoB can do is break even with the worst a SM can do. Besides, how many Celestine squads can you put on the table? And how many tac squads can be fielded against them?

I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing. My original point was to eldargirl's objection that the new Sisters isn't "fluffy." My core contention is that it is.

So ... when you say "Sisters are not assault troops," what do you mean? Do you mean that according to their fluff, sisters should not be good in the assault phase of the game? I agree with you. Do you mean that according to their fluff sisters should never have an incentive to charge, in the game mechanical sense of the term? I disagree with you. Do you mean that according to their fluff sisters should not be good at assault in the military sense? I disagree with you.

I contend that according to their fluff, the tactical niche sisters occupy is that of Imperial troops who are excellent at assault in the military sense, and only fair to middling in the game mechanical sense. Fluff-wise, I contend that the Imperium doesn't have any troops who can assault (in the military sense) like sisters of battle can. Give me a codex that tries to make them that, and I will be happy. Give me a codex that actually makes them that, and I'll be super happy.

[Lancel]

I thought there was something funny about that, but I couldn't think of where I saw it was VS Tyranids. Yet more evidence of a rush job.

First, while it's true that the numbers of the Orders Militant have always been problematic, I don't think the answer to that conundrum can be that they're rarer than space marines. I don't see how the Orders Militant can simultaneously garrison important Ecclesiarchical sites (which I think we all agree they do) and form the spearheads of wars of faith (which I think we also all agree they do) if their total numbers are not very significantly upwards of one million. That either means that the Orders Majoris need to be retconned to be much larger than previously stated, or that there are many more Orders Minoris than there are space marine chapters, true, but I don't see a problem with either of those necessities.

My point is more that it should be addressed one way or another preferably. As it is we have to assume there could be tens of thousands or more of Orders Minoris, but that doesn't help an army itself explain how it got its numbers back.

Second, battle sisters have always been represented as sustaining significant casualties. I think the significance of that is not that battle sisters are poor soldiers, but rather that battle sisters are willing to sustain significant casualties. Space marines are famously shy about taking casualties. Sisters are willing to suck it up. I think that's a significant difference between the two forces, one that goes to the very core of why these two power-armored organizations deserve to be separate armies - and the only way I can see to represent that on the tabletop is for battle sisters to be significantly more numerous at a given points value than space marines, and thus significantly cheaper on a per-model basis.

Yes, but that's still contradicting with other areas of the fluff. I'm not really sure how many shrines they actively guard at a time, there's more to suggest the Sisters move around a lot and travel in small groups, squad size and lower. Heck, FFG would have us think Sisters go off solo often enough, and then the number discrepancy only really applies to the Orders Militant anyway. Certainly the other branches aren't lacking in combat skill apparently.

Third, battle sisters have always been significantly cheaper on a per-model basis than space marines. In 3rd edition a basic battle sister cost 11 points...

I was talking about expense in actual cash the whole time, not points.

For the Celestians, there could be a little wargear package that actually makes them worthwhile in melee. I'd probably be fairly happy with a Sarissas all-around option for the looks at least, but I'd rather not see it as a "counts as close combat weapon", the visual of a Sister wielding a bolter with a Sarissa like a close combat weapon and pulling out her pistol for the extra attack is not a pretty one. I'm with the suggestion that they should be shoot good to soften them up and then charge though. My dream Celestians have always been for them to have Relentless, but hey, I guess I sort of got my wish with the new Command Squad. Sort of. We'll just see if they'll actually be worthwhile in melee.

Simulacrum can't be much but maybe a shooting or faith related thing, since it's supposed to give Sisters in a building its benefits. I'm personally expecting it to allow a reroll on acts of faith. I know the Seraphim get that specifically listed as their ability, but it might work out. Seraphim with a Veteran Superior got the Simulacrum in the previous codex, it wasn't a banner-type upgrade for them, so maybe there's a similar idea here.

Really, with some of the crazy left-hand-right-hand stuff going on, it's not completely out the window even if it's not typical.