Scarab bases Vs. Force Weapons

[MaxKool]

[I]That is only the case with 1 wound models. When models have multiple wounds, you apply unsaved wounds onto wounded models first and remove them from play before moving on and allocating wounds to other models.

If that was not the case and you just give 1 wound to everyone before looping back, then there would be no need to equip guys differently for wound allocation now would there?[/I]

First off you always allocate wounds for all models in a unit. Each base is still allocated wounds, but since they are all identical and you roll all thier saves at the same time it is pretty pointless. Mainly because you can't spread the wounds around do to the rules for multiple wound models. I feel I didn't effectively communicate my point so...

Page 26 "Units oif multiple wound models"

"...If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then procede as normal..."

YES we understand that, a whole model for an ID wound, what we were talking about is u dont toss a single wound on all the bases and then start again. Mulitwound are differant. AND that the force weps if all at the same INI step would only activate after failed INV saves.

So to cheese around this, I should tell my GK buddy to only use the NFW in squads with a higher ini step model. THis way it they will activate when the IC does and all their wounds casue ID from the get go. If its all guys at the same step then you could stack the wounds have a usless activation of a NFW and nothing happens...

This is some interesting stuff I wasnt aware of and am glad somonoe brought up.

[The Twilight Fade]

Well at least I wasn't entirely wrong, I guess I need to bear that in mind the next time this comes up.

Nid warriors have it better at least, they make everyone in btb I1

[Luke Licens]

There's no need to 'cheese around it'. Force weapons activate after saves, but before casualties are removed. The only way any wounds could be lost is if they were stacked on a unique model during the Wound Allocation step.

So, in our theoretical example, Grand Master Doomulus has 5 attacks with his Force Weapon. Assume they all hit, and all wound (he's a lucky guy). So, the 5 Scarabs he's fighting suffer 5 power weapon wounds, and they get allocated one each. They have no Inuln and they autofail armour, so he rolls to activate his FW and succeeds. One base of scarabs is removed outright, and we have 4 more power weapon wounds to deal with.

All of these multiwound models are identical, so we remove whole models where possible. 3 wounds make another scarab base vanish, leaving us with one wound on one of the 3 remaining scarabs. As they are identical, it doesn't really matter which one.

In round two, Doomulus attacks again. 5 more hits, 5 more wounds.You can allocate these wounds any way you like, but as the Scarabs are still identical, they get pooled once again. Force Weapon once again succeeds, removing one of the unwounded bases. The four power weapon wounds finish off the 2 wound scarab, then put two wounds on the last base. The rest of the combat is academic.

Edit: This is incorrect, but preserved for posterity. See below.

A unit of grey knights would work the same way, but with another Instant Death wound for each Force Weapon in the combat.

This whole post is academic if you get Rad Grenades or 2 casts of hammerhand, though. Strength 6 would double the Scarabs out, making ALL of the wounds Instant Death. Rad Grenades are worse, reducing toughness to 2 and doubling them out with an unboosted Str 4.

[DarkLink]

A unit of grey knights would work the same way, but with another Instant Death wound for each Force Weapon in the combat.

That's not how GK nemesis force weapons work. It is not 'another ID wound for each force weapon'. All attacks inflict instant death, not one per force weapon. Go back and reread the nemesis force weapon rules.

Edit: For units with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, that is. GK IC force weapons act as normal.

[Luke Licens]

I was so certain you were wrong. My words, they taste like crow.

Grey Knight, Pg 54, Wargear, Nemesis Force Weapons:

Force Weapons:
All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weaopns (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death.

So really, they don't work 'as detailed in the 40k rulebook' at all. Codex trumps, all Brotherhood attacks are ID. Way to go, Ward.

Edit: Still, force weapons are a moot point if you have Rad Grenade support. Skip the Psychic tests and ID them with basic Strength 4 attacks. Scarabs hate Grey Knights.

[ForsakenImp]

4 models will die. You allocate wounds to models at a 1 wound per model rate, then you make all saves- so there would be 4 scarabs with a wound allocated to them. You then roll your saves, grouping up like models, and see the results- wounds that would cause insta-death remove whole unwounded models where possible. Thus, 4 die.

[Luke Licens]

4 models will die. You allocate wounds to models at a 1 wound per model rate, then you make all saves- so there would be 4 scarabs with a wound allocated to them. You then roll your saves, grouping up like models, and see the results- wounds that would cause insta-death remove whole unwounded models where possible. Thus, 4 die.

I'm not sure which 4 models you are refering to. If those 4 wounds all caused instant death (by doubling toughness, by being shots from D-Cannons, or by being wounds from active Brotherhood of Psykers forceweapons) then absolutely.

However, an Independent Character's force weapon (be he Draigo, Mephiston or Tigurius) can only cause 1 wound to become instant death by activating the force weapon's innate Psychic Power. So, in my example above, the Grand Master can only slay one Scarab base outright each round. Unless he brought Rad Grenades or a Hammer, which cause instant death without resorting to Psychic Tests.

[Darkwynn]

Since, I have gotten 16 different calls from people about this thread and the Wrecking crew guys you made me go look this one up.

Here is the answer...

You and Marc are both right Shane.

Here is why...

A Force weapon used by a librarian would that would cause 4 wounds to a scarab squad. You would have to pull a base and one model would roll over. Then the librarian would be able to active his force weapon to kill another base. That is because a Librarian Force weapon is only allowed to kill one multiple wound model per the BRB. This calls out only a single model can be destroyed by a normal force weapon.

Your right when Grey knights attack they have different Nemesis force weapons. They only follow the Force weapon for making a psychic check then you follow the Nemesis force weapon rules. Which state all wounds cause instant death. This states that all their wounds turn into instant death regardless of toughness.

So in short if a scarab swarm is fighting a Space Marine libby or a Blood angel libby they won't loose multiple bases. If they are fighting Grey Knights they are boned.

[Tynskel]

Well, a BA Libby, or a SM Libby with str 10 or str 6 will wipe em out good, too.

[Luke Licens]

Your right when Grey knights attack they have different Nemesis force weapons. They only follow the Force weapon for making a psychic check then you follow the Nemesis force weapon rules. Which state all wounds cause instant death. This states that all their wounds turn into instant death regardless of toughness.

Not quite.
This is the passage you are referring to (emphasis added):

Force Weapons:
All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death.

As GK ICs lack the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule (and lack multiple force weapons) the 'all wounds cause instant death' does not apply to them. Their force weapons act exactly as described in the BRB, with the addtion of Daemonbane and their special Nemesis weapon type ability (sword/stave/halberd/hammer/falchion).