Coming back to Fantasy

[Duke Vorian]

I have been really out of the loop with Warhammer Fantasy for the past almost two years (Yes, I was pretty much living under a rock for that time) and am considering getting back into it with the new year.

I am going to be starting fresh but I want current players personal opinion on Fantasy as it stands now. I hear mixed things; from my old gaming group saying no one in their area play it anymore because they don't like it to local players at one of the stores I go to absolutely loving it.

I appreciate any info/opinions on Warhammer Fantasy as it stands now and look forward to that info/opinions.

[Chronowraith]

Personally, I really like 8th Edition Fantasy. It plays much smoother and faster and the dynamic terrain adds a unique element. So I'll cover briefly the biggest changes and then go over some of the common complaints and how I personally look at them.

Changes

Charges
All units charge 2d6 + their movement characteristic. If they do not reach their charge target then they move the result of the highest die.

Premeasuring
No more guess range weapons and template weapons (blast or flame) are placed first and then resolved.

Winds of Magic
Roll 2d6 every magic phase. The player whose turn it is gets that many power dice to cast and his opponent gets the highest die result in dispel dice.

Casting
Casters roll power dice as usual but add their casting level to the dice. So a Grey Seer rolling three power dice would have a final casting attempt of 3d6+4. Miscasts are generated on double 6's the same as irresistible force.

Close Combat
This changed dramatically in 8th edition. In previous editions you fought only with the front rank and whoever charged struck first in the first round of combat. Now, you always fight with at least two ranks of models and combat is always resolved in initiative order. Models in the 2nd rank only receive a single attack usually. In addition, casualties are taken front the back of the unit instead of the front ensuring that large unit will usually get their full attacks.

Horde Formations
Units now get bonuses when fighting in ranks at least 10 wide. Primarily they fight with an additional rank.

Steadfast
If a unit that loses combat still possess more ranks than the opposing unit they are counted as "Steadfast". This means the unit is effectively Stubborn and tests on their base leadership (or that of the general if in range of his inspiring presence).

Terrain
Most terrain has an affect on units nearby or passing through. Almost all of these are known when placing the terrain piece with the primary exception of Mysterious Woods which are rolled for the first time they are entered.

Unit Types
All units are classified as Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, Monsters, War machines, or Characters (and I think warbeasts) now and each have a specified base size and other rules associated with them.

Monstrous Infantry
Units like trolls and ogres received a sizable bonus. They too fight in two ranks but the second rank can fight with up to 3 attacks. Also, due to their large size they receive a special stomp attack that occurs after both sides have fought (but still contributes to combat resolution.

Otherwise there are a number of other changes to war machines, skirmishers, and cavalry as well as new things like parry saves, channeling, etc.

So now the common complaints;

"8th Edition is too random"
It's not anymore random than any other tabletop wargame. At the end of the day, it's a game that relies on dice. What GW did was remove the senseless guesswork.

"I fail my charges all the time"
Charges used to simply be double your base movement. Without premeasuring you had to rely on your eye. Now you can crunch the numbers. With my skaven, I rarely charge unless I am within 12" (base move of 5 means I need around a 7 to charge on average). Result? I get the majority of my charges off. Probably far more than I ever did in 7th and previous editions.

"Magic is too overpowered"
Magic isn't any more overpowered now than it was in 7th edition and earlier. If anything the randomness of the Winds of Magic help negate that and makes relying on magic to win your games a little of a gamble. Also, with each of the old books that GW rewrites, the game becomes more balanced as uber-spells are removed, rewritten, or recosted.

"I don't like how GW is removing many of my favorite magic items from the army books"
To some extent I agree with this one. It's a shame to see many characterful items removed from the books. That being said, most of the items removed were filler that were rarely, if ever, taken. the expansion of the basic magic items in the main rulebook also made many of those items superfluous.

Have anymore questions? Just ask. I've played Fantasy since 2nd edition and 8th edition is definitely one of my favorite editions so far.

[Duke Vorian]

Thanks a lot for the detailed overview, I really appreciate it.

You really countered all the negative comments that I have heard and I like what you had to say.

It doesn't seem like a lot of armies have been re-done since the release of 8th Edition, what armies benefited from the changes made in 8th Edition and/or are at an advantage in Fantasy now?

[Chronowraith]

Thanks a lot for the detailed overview, I really appreciate it.

You really countered all the negative comments that I have heard and I like what you had to say.

It doesn't seem like a lot of armies have been re-done since the release of 8th Edition, what armies benefited from the changes made in 8th Edition and/or are at an advantage in Fantasy now?

Armies redone since 8th edition has dropped are limited to Orcs and Goblins, Tomb Kings, and Ogres unless I'm forgetting something.

Right now the best performing books are probably Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos, Skaven, and High Elves. Bretonnians, Wood Elves, and Beastmen take up the bottom slots.

Vampire Counts - Cheap spells with casting costs that consider the old method of casting spells means that they need minimal casters on the board to rule the roost. Add in a grave guard deathstar and the book is pretty mean. This is most likely why this army is being rewritten and rumored to be next on the release schedule.

Warriors of Chaos - With the best statline in the game for basic troops Warriors of Chaos have high weapon skill, high strength, great armor, and best of all - high initiative. This means they will strike first *most* of the time. Tzeentch tends to rule the roost these days since mark of Tzeentch on Warriors gives a 5+ parry save (ward save but with a few limitations). Also Warriors due well because in addition to fantastic warriors they also have cheap marauders available so they have the best of both worlds with nice elite infantry and cheap hordable infantry.

Skaven - Cheap infantry means skaven can horde clanrat units for an extra punch or keep deep ranks on slaves to quagmire enemy units and expose vulnerable flanks. Rat Ogres are dirt cheap monstrous infantry that pack a mean punch. Crazy magic and war machines also help, but 8th edition didn't do anything special for those really.

High Elves - Army wide Always Strikes First means high elves will... always strike first (surprising I know). Combine that with strong magic, spearmen that fight in even an extra rank as opposed to usual and all around decent units and you have a nice solid book.

I should point out that Dark Elves also perform very well but that's largely due to the highly undercosted Hydra.

[cerebros]

I should point out that Dark Elves also perform very well but that's largely due to Okkam's Mindrazor

fixed that for you.

Hydra's can be dealt with. Take 1 horde of Corsairs with Frenzy Banner or Witch Elves, add +1 Attack from the Cauldron and then mix in Mindrazor for S8 attacks for a world of pain

[Chronowraith]

It's a death star unit. Most books have at least one. Truthfully, that one is far less frightening then most I've seen.

one overly expensive unit + supporting unit + magic = deathstar It really doesn't matter what book you take either (short of wood elves).

Okkam's Mindrazor is available throughout many armies and, since it's base casting cost is 18+, can be a bit unreliable. Also, since most people still take a dispel scroll or other magic defenses, you have to deal with that as well. No one in their right mind will let you get this spell off when you most need it so it's just down to luck of the dice... which isn't a sound strategy.

[cerebros]

Overly expensive? It only takes a shade over 300 points to make either horde of Witch Elves or Corsairs.

Dark Elves do not have any restriction on the number of casting dice they can use plus they can use the Sacrificial Dagger to add a power die to the cast if they don't meet the casting value.

The majority of armies only have access to 1 dispel scroll type item which is typically burnt up before combat is joined in all the games I've seen.

[eldargal]

I have a lot of success with Dark Elves without hydras or okkams mindrazor, it is a good book,

[Lord Azaghul]

Thanks a lot for the detailed overview, I really appreciate it.

You really countered all the negative comments that I have heard and I like what you had to say.

It doesn't seem like a lot of armies have been re-done since the release of 8th Edition, what armies benefited from the changes made in 8th Edition and/or are at an advantage in Fantasy now?

Magic is king in 8th ed.

BS shooting has taken quite a hit - WM shooting has gotten a bit better.
CC is now about lots of dice.

Also, its not really the tactical game it was mid 7th ed.
Its much more of a beer and pretzels game atm - its all fun and entertaining - just don't except a solid tactical competition.

If you have the right mind set going into it - the game is still fun, but in no way balanced.

[eldargal]

It is still a tactical game, it just requires different tactics. It may be easier to play than 7th, but that is because 7th was an utter abomination which was more about shuffling units an 8th of an inch ot set off the perfect charge through the enemy army than it was abotu fighting actual battles. It is also far mroe balanced than 7th, where Dark Elves, Vampire Counts or WoC were basically auto-win against everyone else.