Ever-Living Question

[Nachodragon]

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this state; for them the battle is over.”

This does not say removed as a casualty, it is removed from the game. If you read the whole passage, to help clarify what they meant by removed, the models may not actually be dead, they could have just run away or be ripped to shreads. It doesn't really matter what happened to the unit but they are removed, and not removed as a casualty.

I would also say Death or Glory would remove the model too and you would not get to roll for ever-living. It does not say removed as Casualty.

[WYSIWYG]

No it does do 'the same dam thing'.
JotWW 'removes from play'.
Last Laugh removes as a casualty.
No one (that I knew) had a problem with the models removed this way (old and new Codex) getting a WWB or RP roll.
The Last Laugh FAQ doesn't help us with JotWW, sweeping advance and other such effects that have a different wording.
Things that remove models from play and not remove as a casualty.

He is correct, the Last Laugh FaQ does not help. We know we can get Reanimation Protocols and Ever-living rolls against things that remove models as casualties. What we need to know is whether or not Ever-living can be used if the model is removed from play by things like Jaws. Also we need to know if being swept in CC counts as being removed as a casualty or removed from play, and whether you can use Ever-living when being swept, or not. I can't see how it could be any other way truthfully, if Ever-living doesn't protect you from being swept or removed from play, it is a completely useless and redundant rule, as every model with Ever-living has Reanimation Protocols.

[WYSIWYG]

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this state; for them the battle is over.”

This does not say removed as a casualty, it is removed from the game. If you read the whole passage, to help clarify what they meant by removed, the models may not actually be dead, they could have just run away or be ripped to shreads. It doesn't really matter what happened to the unit but they are removed, and not removed as a casualty.

I would also say Death or Glory would remove the model too and you would not get to roll for ever-living. It does not say removed as Casualty.

Heres the problem with your statement, Ever-living doesn't say "If the model is removed as a Casualty, place an Ever-living counter." The Ever-living rule actually says "Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play." So you, in effect, are actually agree with us when we say that you can use Ever-living for things like Death or glory or being swept.

[Nachodragon]

Ok, now that I arrived at home and cracked open my codex...
These are verbatim from the codex.

Reanimation Protocol
"If a model with Reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance..."
Ever-Living
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play."

You can't discount the first sentence of Ever-living. It still has to be removed as a casualty.

[The Twilight Fade]

So the last laugh doesn't actually remove from play?

Damn, the thing is i've never been bothered about not being able to resurrect after a sweeping advance as that is ultimatly sort of avoidable. The main gripe I have is my 200+ point, initiative 2 IC can be sniped out of my unit from 24" away and there is very little that can be said about it!

I like how this issue came up with the old necron codex and had pages upon pages of back and forth arguments as to whether or not it can be used after a sweep and no-one is still none the wiser

[SeattleDV8]

Heh, we had an answer for the old codex, it's just a couple of people didn't like that answer.

[Wildeybeast]

Ok, now that I arrived at home and cracked open my codex...
These are verbatim from the codex.

Reanimation Protocol
"If a model with Reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance..."
Ever-Living
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play."

You can't discount the first sentence of Ever-living. It still has to be removed as a casualty.

But what is the difference between being removed as a casulty and not? The rulebook doesn't make clear what makes you count as a casulty. The best I can find is:
p24 "Casulties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in some way. In any case they are no longer fit to particpate in the battle". So my interpretation would be that anything which removes you form the board and prevents you from taking further part in the battle turns you into a casulty, regardless of whether it says remove as a casulty or simply remove from play. How can you be removed from the board, no longer able to return and not be a casulty?
So, IMO, the only times you don't get everliving is if you are turned into something else (since you aren't removed from the board, your model simply becomes the enemy model) and if you fall back off the board (as the model cannot be placed back onto the board). Sweeping advance would give you everliving, providing you can place the model.
At least that's my interpretation, I would welcome counter arguments.

[WYSIWYG]

Ok, now that I arrived at home and cracked open my codex...
These are verbatim from the codex.

Reanimation Protocol
"If a model with Reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance..."
Ever-Living
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play."

You can't discount the first sentence of Ever-living. It still has to be removed as a casualty.

Actually your reading it wrong, the first sentence is not telling you when, where or how to use Ever-living. The first sentence is telling the Necron player that he is not supposed to place a Reanimation Protocol counter as he normally would when a model with Ever-living is removed, the players is instead supposed to place an EL counter, which is different from a Reanimation Protocol counter. The first sentence simply serves the purpose of differentiating models with RP from models with EL, and informing the player that they are not to place a RP counter for a model with EL. "Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play." The second sentence tells you when (model was removed from play), where (where the model was removed), and how (place an Ever-living counter). You see, the first sentence is simply telling you not to place a RP counter as normal, while the second is actually instructing you on how EL is played.

[Nachodragon]

You are reading it wrong. The first sentence tells you to not add a RP token and the second says to add an EL token. If you read it your way, then you would still not be able to place a EL token for removed from play. The second sentence start with INSTEAD so it is modifying the sentence previous. if you don't have that then you can't do squat. They have already clarified in the first sentence how the model was removed from play so they don't need to add 'as a casualty' again in the second sentence. Sure, I think they should have to make things SUPER easy to understand but we all know GW sucks at writing rules.

It should read for interpretation, "If a model with this special rule is removed in any way...." but it doesn't. So, anything that removes from play as a casualty gets a counter, and anything that removes from play does not. Sweeping, DoG, JAWs, etc.

[Wildeybeast]

You are reading it wrong. The first sentence tells you to not add a RP token and the second says to add an EL token. If you read it your way, then you would still not be able to place a EL token for removed from play. The second sentence start with INSTEAD so it is modifying the sentence previous. if you don't have that then you can't do squat. They have already clarified in the first sentence how the model was removed from play so they don't need to add 'as a casualty' again in the second sentence. Sure, I think they should have to make things SUPER easy to understand but we all know GW sucks at writing rules.

It should read for interpretation, "If a model with this special rule is removed in any way...." but it doesn't. So, anything that removes from play as a casualty gets a counter, and anything that removes from play does not. Sweeping, DoG, JAWs, etc.

And again I ask you define what makes a model a casulty and how you can be removed from play without becoming a casulty......