Big New Kits - auto-includes or balanced options?

[eldargal]

One of the most common complaints about 8th edition is the new policy if including a couple of large plastic kits with each army. Every time one of these is announced/leaked everyone starts moaning (not here on BoLs, thankfully) about how the rules will be OP and everyone will have to have one to be competitive. All so they can sell models.

But is this really accurate?

Let's look at the big kits we've seen in this 'new policy':

Arachnarok
Warsphinx/Necrosphinx
Thundertusk/Stonehorn
Ghorgon/Cygor

Are any of these really so OP that everyone has to field one or more to be competitive? My experience says no. The exception perhaps is the Necrosphinx/warsphinx, most TK armies seem to have one but when I've asked them about it most talk about how damned beautiful it is, now how overpowered.

I've been playing quite a few games with VC and I only sometimes take a Coven Throne and I've yet to use a Mortis Engine, as nice as they are I don't see them being 'must-haves'.

For some reason the kits that came out with SoM don't seem to be included in the complaints, perhaps because people already knew mounted dreadlords/chaos sorcerors aren't overpowered.

Rant begins.

I really hate this complaint, if only because this 'new policy' is nothing of the sort.


Post-new policy:
Arachnarok
Warsphinx/Necrosphinx
Thundertusk/Stonehorn
Ghorgon/Cygor
War Altar
Luminark of Hysh
Celestian Hurricanum

Pre-new policy:
Four Greater Daemons
Daemon Prince
Malekith on Bladk Dragon
Beastmaster on manticore
That old Dark Elf beast chap on dragon
Hydra
High Elf Dragon
Prince Imrik
Eltharion
Stegadon
Azhag the Slaughterer
Orc on Wyvern
Screaming Bell
Doomwheel
Steam Tank
OOP War Wagon
Zacharias on zombie dragon
Galrauch
Giant
WE Sisters of Twilight

Not to mention a lot more Out of Production and whatnot. If anything all we are seeing now is plastic production being utilised as fully for WFB as it has been for 40k, letting us have abundant monsters and whatnot without producing lots of expensive, hard to put together kits. It is also allowing the new monsters to be suitably monstrous as a result, so the old HE dragon does look a bit puny now.

Rant ends.

What do you think?

[Wildeybeast]

I completely agree that 'big stuff' is nothign new, it's just the kits are more impressive now. As an empire player I honestly don't understand this complaint. I find a couple of great cannons kill anything on that list within a couple of turns. The only exceptions are the hell pit with it's stupid regen save and the ogre one that halves multiple wound, but lore of fire takes care of the hell pit and my greatswords have seen off the ogre one with some good rolling. In short, most armies have stuff that can kill all the new big kits, though somtimes it requires some tailoring. My WE, for example, would struggle to kill most things on that list, until I take a treeman ancient and boost him with a couple of amber spells to turn him into a walking tree of death. I think all the new stuff is in books which are competitive but balanced and the big kits are certainly not auto win options. People are moaning because either a) they want shiny new stuff too or b) they aren't a good enough player to figure out how to kill it. And like you said, the moans are only on certain forums. I wonder which ones those are....

[UltramarineFan]

Agreed, often with the larger monsters it's not even that they're balanced rather than OP many are actually under powered and slightly over costed. This coming simply from the fact that these are large targets with low initiatives and so not considered that much of a threat by many armies who are perfectly capable of dealing with these.

[Chronowraith]

The only monster that seems to be an auto-include these days is the War Sphinx. I haven't played a Tomb King player without one and I know I don't leave mine at home when I decide to use that army.

I feel that you could make the argument that many of the preexisting monsters are seen just as much as the new ones. How often did you see Skaven HPA in 7th? All the time? Still that way? Yup. What about the Hydra? Same? Yup.

Having large models/monsters is nothing new to fantasy, they are, as Witt mentions, simply becoming more common as the kits become easier to assemble. These monsters don't sway the battle anymore than a block of infantry that costs the same point total. I've taken out monsters with poison wind globadiers and that unit was just in as filler.

Monsters are typically easily countered by ranked infantry. The only ones that aren't are the rare unbreakable ones.

8th edition isn't perfect by any means (although it is my favorite edition out of the 6 I've actually played), but of all the things to complain about- large monsters isn't one of them.

[eldargal]

Exactly, and 8th is my favourite edition since 4th, too. Not that I remember 4th very well.

It's getting ridiculous though, every damne release it is all 'ooh, what monsters/big kit and monstrous cavalry will they force us to take in our armies!' then a week or two after release 'ooh, why aren't crypt ghouls/vargheists/mortis engine/coven throne/whatever better'. Not to mention that when 8th came out everyone was moaning about how it was a ploy to sell more infantry because, shock horror, infantry was suddenly worth taking.

All that is happening, as far as I see it, is that GW is using their manufacturing capabilities to give us what the background has always said we should have.

[Brakkart]

All that is happening, as far as I see it, is that GW is using their manufacturing capabilities to give us what the background has always said we should have.

This! All the fiction for the world describes vast hordes of troops, massive monsters and such and yet in the past the reality of the tabletop game has paled in comparison to that. I don't play the game at the moment, but my housemate does and his Lizardman army looks far more impressive now with great blocks of Saurus backed by a couple Stegadons (and he plans on getting more of them) than it ever has before.

Thanks to the fortunes GW has invested over the years in constantly improving plastic molding to the level it is at today, we are finally getting Fantasy armies that actually look fantastical. And for those who complain about big blocks of troops, read some historical battle accounts of the Greeks, Romans, Persians or even the British Empire and you'll see that is how armies have historically done battle right up to the start of the 20th century. It was only the invention of the Gatling Cannon (and later machine guns) that put an end to that, and even then only after the carnage of the First World War.

[Wildeybeast]

Exactly, and 8th is my favourite edition since 4th, too. Not that I remember 4th very well.

It's getting ridiculous though, every damne release it is all 'ooh, what monsters/big kit and monstrous cavalry will they force us to take in our armies!' then a week or two after release 'ooh, why aren't crypt ghouls/vargheists/mortis engine/coven throne/whatever better'. Not to mention that when 8th came out everyone was moaning about how it was a ploy to sell more infantry because, shock horror, infantry was suddenly worth taking.

All that is happening, as far as I see it, is that GW is using their manufacturing capabilities to give us what the background has always said we should have.

I think you should use a whineseer a bit less! This really is a complaint with no justification. Look at the new empire. The big kit releases are Karl Franz on griffon which was already available, volkmar on war altar which was already available and two wizardmobiles which I imagine will be easily squishable by most things. Hardly OP is it? People moaning about this are just jealous and dumb. I don't collect VC, TK, OK or O&G but I absolutely loved the models they bought out and I think that level of quality is fantastic and can only be good for the hobby as it will encourage more people to statr collecting those armies and raises the bar for competitors to try and live up to.

[cerebros]

Arachnarok
Warsphinx/Necrosphinx
Thundertusk/Stonehorn
Ghorgon/Cygor

Are any of these really so OP that everyone has to field one or more to be competitive? My experience says no. The exception perhaps is the Necrosphinx/warsphinx, most TK armies seem to have one but when I've asked them about it most talk about how damned beautiful it is, now how overpowered.

If there weren't so many armies that have cannons I'm sure you'd see these models a lot more but the laser-guided, magic bullet cannons that we have in 8th that have seen the demise of things like Dragon riders in people's lists stop these big models being taken often enough to figure out if they really are as OP as some claim.

I've been playing quite a few games with VC and I only sometimes take a Coven Throne and I've yet to use a Mortis Engine, as nice as they are I don't see them being 'must-haves'.

Frankly I can't see why anyone would take a Coven Throne unless they're playing a high points game and need to use up their points somewhere. Double Mortis Engine on the other hand is something I'd expect to see in most competitive VC lists (certainly in the two games I've played against the new book both players took double Engine). The regen bubble plus the damage they do to enemy units in the bubble range, plus the damage when they're destroyed, makes them something that's a pain to deal with

[eldargal]

So, the larger kits aren't overpowered and overutilised because most other armies have an effective way of countering them? Isn't that called balance.

I had combat themed Lahmians on coven thrones absolutely tear through tough enemy units in support of skeleton tarpits. Really love them. I agree you do soe a few mortis engines about but that isn't a problem, I just don't see them being a must have. Even if they are, in some isolated cases (war sphinx, perhaps mortis engine) how is it any worse than great cannons being must-haves for Empire for five editions?

[Kaiserdean]

I found that the improvements to basic troops through the hoard bonuses have kept me from fielding large monster/creatures/big 'uns like I used to. A character on a monster doesn't seem to stand up on it's own anymore and a steadfast hoard attacking with three ranks can usually beat a lone monster (except for the hellpit). I find big monsters are more useful to hit things in the flanks.