Generic Sci-Fi Stuff Isn't Stealing

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Just for the sake of this argument, I thought i'd add my opinion: Firstly I agree with Kawauso and Eldargal. Because Chapter House firstly were attempting to make Games Workshop kits... To me that seems a bit off and I'm not a fan of their style, but hey we all have our opinions.

However, when people claim that Games Workshop copies all of the aforementioned elements of fantasy and sci-fi it's because as artists and designers, everything you do has to be based in "real life" when you first start the process, because things need to look like they 'could' work, enough to keep up the suspence of disbelief (I think thats the term) and so when the Games Workshop 'copies' often it's a hommage, such as the "we'll be back rule".

But this idea of paying hommage to their predecessors I belive comes from Newtons claim that to get where he got, he stood on the back of giants (para phrased), also... Would anyone buy something with no recognisable links to anything ever previously made? (if even plausible). But yeah... I hope that made some form of sense .

[mikethefish]

Where exactly GW got their inspiration from is completely irrelevant IMO. At the end of the day, here's where the ultimate situation lies:

Through various sources of inspiration, GW created a world/game that became very popular with wargaming fans. This is undeniable.

Mantic comes along, and (despite creating their own proprietary game rules) creates a series of figures that are obviously designed to be "compatible" with GW's creation - though at a slightly cheaper monetary cost. Is this deniable? Technically yes - we do not have ESP powers to look into the minds of Mantic's designers. But while you CAN deny that this was Mantic's motivation, you would be a fool if you did. The evidence - though circumstantial - is mountainous. You can only plunge your head in the sand so deep before you are buried completely. The similarities of Mantic's line to the ideas/aesthetic of the biggest miniature seller in the market are too many to possibly ignore.

So did Mantic copy GW's designs when they made their models? Absolutely. But how is that bad? They are legally ok (no lawsuits yet so...), so no problem there. They provide players with different alternatives for creating armies - which is also not bad. For most players, it's always fun to see a different take on an existing army. Is it even hurting GW sales? I seriously doubt it. Even if you grant that ever sale of a Mantic model is a sale that GW doesn't see - on the other side, that's another player who is PLAYING a GW product, and a healthy local gaming community (however it comes about) only helps GW's bottom line.

People... stop worrying about this. Nobody's really getting hurt here. It doesn't matter who copied who. Just play the game, have fun, and use whatever tools you need to use in order to make sure your army is cool and unique.

SUMMARY-
Did Mantic copy GW? Yes. They are absolutely trying to use the popularity of GW's models/look to sell their own line. To think otherwise is pretty foolish. It's just that that's not really a bad thing, and only really helps out our hobby.

[Sure]

People tend to have an off-base idea about IP and how it relates to this hobby. Here's a real basic version of how this plays out in U.S. law:

TRADEMARK:
these are the things that let you know the entity from whom the product is derived. I can't put golden arches over my hamburger shack because that belongs to McDonalds. I can't use Tyranids to dexcribe my new line of space-monster toys or Tau for the generic high-tech alien toys I put out.
I could have started a computer manufacturing company called Apple and Apple Records would have to suck it because everyone knows that these are two entirely different businesses due to their area of business. That being said, there were meetings and negotiations when apple got into the whole iTunes business.

PATENT:
you created some new thing that is a novel innovation. it may be a whole new invention OR a modification/improvement of an existing one, but you must be able to show how what you created is so different from any existing patent that you should be granted special rights. If GW itself were to develop a new high-quality resin that proves to be cheaper to produce and mold AND there was something different about the chemical formula from all other resins then it could get a patent. If it merely mixed together two resins whose formulas were patented by another company, then there isn't really anything novel.

copyright:
usually reserved for ORIGINAL creative works. the standard for original is different than the "NOVEL" standard applied to patents. Originality simply requires enough creative input to be a work that stands on its own. This is a low standard. That is why sampling has been allowed in music. This is why many model companies should be perfectly fine creating models that fit in to the 40K universe provided they don't cross the boundary of TRADEMARK infringement. An outer space elf, an outer space ork, or a genetic supersoldier riding a wolf are all simply concepts...they really can't be copyrighted (although names and individual sculpts can be). However, any company making sculpts compatible for 40k must be careful to make their products easily distinguishable from GW sculpts and names or they could get into a tight spot.

As far as I'm concerned, GW brought this competition on themselves with their business practices. The lack of a complete range of models for codices combined with things like finecast (a cheaper alternative that for which we will charge our customers more!...if they were smart they would have kept a lid on the cheaper part.)) make for diminsihed customer loyalty. You aren't looking for similarities, but rather you are looking for differences. By saying it's a thinly veiled knock-off you may be saying it just may have enough originality to squeek by! One person's thin veil may be the judge's differentiator.

[Chris Copeland]

So did Mantic copy GW's designs when they made their models? Absolutely. But how is that bad? They are legally ok (no lawsuits yet so...), so no problem there. They provide players with different alternatives for creating armies - which is also not bad. For most players, it's always fun to see a different take on an existing army. Is it even hurting GW sales? I seriously doubt it... Did Mantic copy GW? Yes. They are absolutely trying to use the popularity of GW's models/look to sell their own line. To think otherwise is pretty foolish. It's just that that's not really a bad thing, and only really helps out our hobby.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here. I agree with some of what Mike says and disagree with some. I agree with him when he says it ultimately causes no real harm and that it even helps the hobby. Everyone I know who has any Mantic models is already well invested in GW product and seems to just be branching out a bit for fun. I've never met a player who just uses a lot of Mantic models to play GW games cheaply... perhaps they are out there... I just haven't met them yet.

I agree that Mantic is pushing it's way into a marketplace created by GW: models that are compatible with GW's ruleset. This is clearly what they are doing. I am not offended by this (Mike doesn't seem to be either) and I think that it is a sign of a healthy marketplace.

Here is where we differ (and perhaps where I am splitting hairs): I've as yet to see a single model that didn't come from long standing icons of Sci Fi and Fantasy: Orcs, Space Soldiers, Rat-Men, Knights, Elves, Undead... etc... etc... ad nauseum. All of those things pre-date GW (and sometimes by centuries) so I can hardly accuse Mantic of ripping off or copying GW. The Space Soldiers with Ray Guns that GW makes don't particularly stick out as being particularly original. They follow the oldest Sci Fi paradigm there is: base your Space Men on the here and now with a little bit of different technology and they'll be all the more believable. If I saw actors dressed as IG troopers in an episode of almost any Sci Fi movie or serial it would most likely be completely lost on me that I was looking at stuff based on Imperial Guard... because the IG are done right: they are pretty darn generic Science Fiction space-troopers.

Again, I may be splitting hairs. Yes, Mantic is looking to ride GW's coattails... no, they are not copying them. Cheers.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Mmmm, Gamesworkshop's success created a larger market for generic sci-fi/fantasy minis. Mantic is taking advantage of the market GWS made more than copying GWS.

[mikethefish]

Well Chris, I really think you ARE splitting hairs here.

It doesn't matter who invented the style. What matters is that GW has a bunch of players who use models that look a certain way. Mantic COULD have made their models look like anything they liked but they are obviously making a bunch of figures deliberately designed to look similar enough to GW's models that some of GW players will buy Mantic's stuff to use for GW games.

This is an imitation. This is a copy. There is no other definition of what is happening. It's not a bad thing as I said, but folks really need to figure out how to call a spade a spade.