Do Grey Knights Deserve the Hate?

[Wildcard]

has no real weaknesses as their lack of numbers are more than compensated with being incredibly durable.

I am not sure i understand where this is coming from. Do you mean infantry or vehicles?

Infantry in general:
- Power armored units: No inv save, no possibility for army wide FNP.
- Terminator armored units: 5++ save against las / melta / plasma etc, can have 4++ save in cc, no possibility for 3++ saves for against shooting / power weapons & fists in cc (save for draigo & some hqs that forego combat provess for safety in cc) Doesn't differ that much from the other (marine) armies HQs?

And, GK dont have access to ap2 (or 3) weaponry (save for the stupid henchmen - not using them since they dont come from the Titan). Other armies can take plasmas / meltas or other weaponry to counter GK forces, that makes terminators use their 5++ save instead of 2+, and negate power armor altogether. (cover is or should be equal to both players as are stealth etc USRs.. - so i wont go into that either)

Vehicles: Sure, GK vehicles have fortitude, but those only help like 1/3 of the cases (shaken + stunned), and landraider & stormraven can still move and let the unit inside assault anyway if the result is shaken. There are armies that let you ignore stunned and shaken, or squadrons that treat stun as shaken instead.

Then there are extra armors (and equivalents) and other upgrades that makes it safer for vehicles to be on the table. Cant remember them exactly, but 4+ cover saves and possibly 2d6 and lower result on the damage table.

So, its not like GK are the only army that can turn aside blows and withstand punishing.

About army wide NFWs:
Also note, that meltas / missiles / lascannon, generally str8+ weaponry is largerly available to many armies (that i know of) that can inflict instand death to multiple wound units. GK don't get these kinds of weapons (save for few transports), and squads can get none. So GK squads, both PA and Terminators have the possibility to cause ID only in cc, and more times than not they hit on a 4+ as opposed to the 3+ of many shooters that can carry str8+ weapons.

While shooting, you don't have to worry about taking casualties, while on the cc the issue is quite the contrary.

So, in my eyes, there are lots of trade offs, strenghts and counter available both on the GK side, but aswell against them.
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About building lists:
- I don't play for the need to utterly crush my enemy. Generally speaking i am not using those frowned upon grenades. I also don't stack psycannons like hell. Although i don't take psilencers either -ever.
- While i feel that my options are somewhat limited (special weapons being psycannon or incinerator), and not too many vehicles to choose from (rhino, razorback, landraider & stormraven) + dreadnought ofc (but i dislike the fact that i cannot make it wield 2x dccw, or some fancy GK-themed CCW) - so i hardly use these aswell.

I know that i am excluding a lot of the options that are generally frowned upon, but that is just for personal preferences..

Maybe the whole point of this post is to question the statements that no matter what - playing against gk are boring and stupid.

There are 4-5 plus me in our small gaming circle, and no-one has ever said its dull or stupid to play against GK (other than 2 times when they wanted to see the full power of grenade and cheese spam - one example was that 10man nob squad with claws, 5+ invusaves and fnp assaulted my 4man terminator + grandmaster squad, and died to the last man before ever even striking a blow at me) :P

[eldargal]

There is more to being durable than just saves and toughness. GK are extremely strong in close combat, they are extremely strong in shooting, they have high initiative and can get extremely high strength and have access to some extremely powerful wargear and characters that boost them further. They have few drawbacks, they aren't overpowered but they are ridiculously forgiving of mistakes.

[bfmusashi]

Not every army can counter the GK easily, and Eldargal is correct, they are forgiving. The IG can rock the power armored space gorillas and I do so with fair regularity.

[bforber]

Vehicles: Sure, GK vehicles have fortitude, but those only help like 1/3 of the cases (shaken + stunned), and landraider & stormraven can still move and let the unit inside assault anyway if the result is shaken. There are armies that let you ignore stunned and shaken, or squadrons that treat stun as shaken instead.

Okay GKs are my main army and I have to disagree with you. The armies that have vehicles that ignore shaken/stunned pay a premium for said ability (Daemonic possession,) or are units that are difficult to use (DC dreads,) I love fortitude, but it should've at least been 10-20 points. Do you realize how much that helps against stuff like ML long fangs glancing land raiders, Gauss weapons glancing vehicles, etc.? In the end you end up wasting shots on a unit because unlike other armies you can't just leave a dreadnought shaken/stunned and move on to surpress the next thing, which I will agree is a balance issue.

Then there are extra armors (and equivalents) and other upgrades that makes it safer for vehicles to be on the table. Cant remember them exactly, but 4+ cover saves and possibly 2d6 and lower result on the damage table.

And? An aircav GK list can lulz around the board with a libby, (because lets face it, Librarian's are the best HQ in the codex,) giving a 3+ cover save to a vehicle that's immune to melta that can flat out and fire a weapon. Answer: Hydras? Okay, good luck with 5's to glance and still having a 5+ cover from the shrouding.

With the exception of fortitude, GKs are equally durable to any other marine army. They die to the same ap3ap2 weapons, terminators still die relatively easy to mass fire, (at least mine do... so many 1s.) I feel like people have a hard time getting away from a castling strategy, which is really just the worst idea against GKs because its way too easy for them to corner you into a 24" corner.

[Wildcard]

but they are ridiculously forgiving of mistakes.

Out of genuine interest, what kind of mistakes are we talking about here? Can you give me some examples?

[Rapture]

Don't take this the wrong way, but did you think about any of this as you typed it? Either that, or this is a fairly serious case of pessimism.

I am not sure i understand where this is coming from. Do you mean infantry or vehicles?

Infantry in general:
- Power armored units: No inv save, no possibility for army wide FNP.
Not having an invulnerable save and army wide FNP is not a disadvantage, it is normal

- Terminator armored units: 5++ save against las / melta / plasma etc, can have 4++ save in cc, no possibility for 3++ saves for against shooting / power weapons & fists in cc (save for draigo & some hqs that forego combat prowess for safety in cc) Doesn't differ that much from the other (marine) armies HQs?
Did you forget that those terminators strike at I6 and with stacking hammerhands and silly grenade support? They don't need a high invulnerable save because generally there will not be enough left to fight back.

And, GK dont have access to ap2 (or 3) weaponry (save for the stupid henchmen - not using them since they dont come from the Titan). Other armies can take plasmas / meltas or other weaponry to counter GK forces, that makes terminators use their 5++ save instead of 2+, and negate power armor altogether. (cover is or should be equal to both players as are stealth etc USRs.. - so i wont go into that either)
Although there are exceptions, access to AP2 weapons is pretty limited in most cases.

Vehicles: Sure, GK vehicles have fortitude, but those only help like 1/3 of the cases (shaken + stunned), and landraider & stormraven can still move and let the unit inside assault anyway if the result is shaken. There are armies that let you ignore stunned and shaken, or squadrons that treat stun as shaken instead.
Did you just say that squadrons of vehicles are an advantage? What kind of advantage allows one unit to put multiple hits on separate tanks? Extra armor does not stop stun locking.

Then there are extra armors (and equivalents) and other upgrades that makes it safer for vehicles to be on the table. Cant remember them exactly, but 4+ cover saves and possibly 2d6 and lower result on the damage table.
The problem isn't that other armies don't have a trick or two (but more likely only one) of their own, but that the GK have more than most of the other combined.

So, its not like GK are the only army that can turn aside blows and withstand punishing.
But they are the undisputed best at it.

About army wide NFWs:
Also note, that meltas / missiles / lascannon, generally str8+ weaponry is largely available to many armies (that i know of) that can inflict instand death to multiple wound units. GK don't get these kinds of weapons (save for few transports), and squads can get none. So GK squads, both PA and Terminators have the possibility to cause ID only in cc, and more times than not they hit on a 4+ as opposed to the 3+ of many shooters that can carry str8+ weapons.
Largely available to who? IG maybe. DE? A little. Other than that it is generally either one (maybe two) per squad or heavy weapons that hold back the entire unit. Can only inflict ID in CC? Every single one of them can inflict ID in CC. Even a SM command squad with four melta guns can inflict, at most, 4 ID wounds. How many cover ignoring, I6, S6 ID wounds squad of grey knights inflict?

While shooting, you don't have to worry about taking casualties, while on the cc the issue is quite the contrary.

So, in my eyes, there are lots of trade offs, strengths and counter available both on the GK side, but aswell against them.
I don't understand what you think the trade off is. Not having invulnerable save on your power armor troops? Having to take yucky inquisition units to spam the sh*t out of special weapons? The ability to fire 4 TL S8 BS4 shots from a dreadnought? S7 rending heavy/assault weapons? GK have broken free or the disadvantages while piling on the advantages. The codex deserves criticism to, hopefully, prevent things like the Tau coming out with railguns that cost 5 points more for the upgrade from one shot to three.

[eldargal]

Edit: Nevermind, Rapture said it better.

[bfmusashi]

You don't need to pay nearly the attention to placement with GK. You get two shots from a storm bolter at 24", you can still charge if you notice they're within range (and you can tell if they're in charge range), and you don't need to worry about something else charging into you with nearly the anxiety of other armies as you will be answering back with (at the minimum) S5 or instant death attacks at initiative. Each unit is a toolbox capable of dealing with multi-wound models, elites, and with some experience, can whittle down a horde to something manageable. It doesn't make them overpowered but they are seriously robust.

[the jeske]

I think people forget that with mecha or even normal movment GK range is never 24" . if it was then deploying further would work against them . when a Psy C has a range of 24+6 or worse 24+2disembark+12 moven hiding isnt much of an option . and before you say "but it halfs their shoting, if they arent termks" then yes you are rigth , but a GK army can fit what in to a normal army 14 psycannons + rifleman ? thats 28 rending str 7 shots and anything the R man can dish out.

[Renegade]

Well if people find GK that hard, take Nuns with Guns of Black Templars with Abhor the Witch. Laugh as NFW are only power weapons on a roll of the dice, and lots of other little surprises for the newb.