GW and 6th considering its competitors

[inquisitorsog]

Yeah, GW pretty much has a lock on the scale that 40K and Fantasy operate with now. With a couple of exceptions, everyone else is propagating skirmish games on the level of Mordheim and Necromunda, and those few who are clocking for GWs scale are mostly feeding models into their game systems, for now. The only other angle I see people taking a shot at GW with is Spartan Games hitting them through their Epic/Fleet games (and model-wise doing a good job).

I know there was a rumor a while back that PP was looking at doing a Sci-Fi game, but that was some time ago, and nothing since.

But until a company is ready and willing to dedicate themselves to more than skirmish games, I doubt that GW is in real danger.

The problem is that 28mm Heroic scale doesn't really work for anything beyond "skirmish" (squad or platoon) scale. It's a horrible scale for company sized conflicts as a 4'x6' board is pretty much required. You can't play on a typical kitchen table with a typical tournament army. How many people can actually play in their home at all? FoW is 15mm partly for that reason. 28mm is a hobbyist and role player scale, not a large unit wargame scale. I can't take a new system seriously for anything other than skirmish games unless they're coming in at 15mm or 20mm for anything higher tech than the civil war.

Let's not forget that we _can_ separate the game from the models. If the game is just as good played with paper stand ups as with lovingly tended to models, then I say it's worth playing. Otherwise, you're just using it as a showcase for your hobby.

[Charistoph]

The problem is that 28mm Heroic scale doesn't really work for anything beyond "skirmish" (squad or platoon) scale. It's a horrible scale for company sized conflicts as a 4'x6' board is pretty much required. You can't play on a typical kitchen table with a typical tournament army. How many people can actually play in their home at all? FoW is 15mm partly for that reason. 28mm is a hobbyist and role player scale, not a large unit wargame scale. I can't take a new system seriously for anything other than skirmish games unless they're coming in at 15mm or 20mm for anything higher tech than the civil war.

Let's not forget that we _can_ separate the game from the models. If the game is just as good played with paper stand ups as with lovingly tended to models, then I say it's worth playing. Otherwise, you're just using it as a showcase for your hobby.

Not saying otherwise, but the level of play that 40K plays at requires either a significant investment of resources to build up to. For example, take how many models a normal Codex: Space Marine army brings in an 1850 list. Now consider how much it would cost to build that same number of models with a Warmachine army compared to the cost incurred creating the Space Marine army. It would be similar to creating a similar-sized Sisters of Battle army (and for the same reason).

We should also remember that Rogue Trader started in similar sizes way back when. When Warmachine reaches 25 years it wouldn't surprise me to find that they've been able to increase the capacity of the game to handle a similar level of conflict as low level 40K games are today. If nothing else, so they can maintain themselves as a company. And there converting things to plastic sure seems to indicate their view of the future.

[Dyrnwyn]

More to the point, the starter boxes should each contain a mini rulebook and all be equivalent points for the same cost and be legal playable armies straight out.

This, so much this. Black Reach is an incredible value, but it means you MUST buy in with a friend, and in order to get two rulebooks, you have to buy two sets - and the forces in the boxes are not equal in points, or entirely legal. Plus, it only has two armies to choose from. I had a friend who picked up Warmachine over 40k purely on the basis of the starter box - he liked Khador and he liked Grey Knights. There's no starter box for Grey Knights, and faced with spending $200+ or $50, he dropped any plans for Grey Knights.

A box set that includes an HQ and 2 Troops, plus enough other models to get the force to 500 points, along with a mini-rulebook/rules for only the models contained in the box ought to be available for at least half the factions in the game, with a price-point of $75-90.

Not saying otherwise, but the level of play that 40K plays at requires either a significant investment of resources to build up to. For example, take how many models a normal Codex: Space Marine army brings in an 1850 list. Now consider how much it would cost to build that same number of models with a Warmachine army compared to the cost incurred creating the Space Marine army. It would be similar to creating a similar-sized Sisters of Battle army (and for the same reason).

We should also remember that Rogue Trader started in similar sizes way back when. When Warmachine reaches 25 years it wouldn't surprise me to find that they've been able to increase the capacity of the game to handle a similar level of conflict as low level 40K games are today. If nothing else, so they can maintain themselves as a company. And there converting things to plastic sure seems to indicate their view of the future.

I depends how they expand - they may introduce more models with stranger abilities, ala Magic, or they may go the way of 40k and up the size of a game. If they do the latter, they'll have to put out a new edition though - the MK.II ruleset doesn't handle large games very well due to each model behaving mostly independently. I know they put out rules for 150+ point games, but they're as unpleasant to play as Apocalypse games, probably more so, as Unbound doesn't add anything on the level of Destroyer weapons that can just pull multiple squads off the table. anything over 50 points in WM/H is pretty slow and clunky right now.

[Charistoph]

This, so much this. Black Reach is an incredible value, but it means you MUST buy in with a friend, and in order to get two rulebooks, you have to buy two sets - and the forces in the boxes are not equal in points, or entirely legal. Plus, it only has two armies to choose from. I had a friend who picked up Warmachine over 40k purely on the basis of the starter box - he liked Khador and he liked Grey Knights. There's no starter box for Grey Knights, and faced with spending $200+ or $50, he dropped any plans for Grey Knights.

A box set that includes an HQ and 2 Troops, plus enough other models to get the force to $500, along with a mini-rulebook/rules for only the models contained in the box ought to be available for at least half the factions in the game, with a price-point of $75-90.

No argument here, except, I think you meant 500 POINTS, not dollars.

I depends how they expand - they may introduce more models with stranger abilities, ala Magic, or they may go the way of 40k and up the size of a game. If they do the latter, they'll have to put out a new edition though - the MK.II ruleset doesn't handle large games very well due to each model behaving mostly independently. I know they put out rules for 150+ point games, but they're as unpleasant to play as Apocalypse games, probably more so, as Unbound doesn't add anything on the level of Destroyer weapons that can just pull multiple squads off the table. anything over 50 points in WM/H is pretty slow and clunky right now.

True, true. All I was saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if they did, not that they will or would. A lot depends on how the company is structured at the time and how dedicated they are to using plastic for units.

Of course, they could just start a new game from scratch designed and dedicated to being a 40K buster before then. They have the talent now to do so, whether they are willing to take the massive risk in resources, is another story.

[Dyrnwyn]

No argument here, except, I think you meant 500 POINTS, not dollars.

Indeed I did! Nice catch there - fixed.

True, true. All I was saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if they did, not that they will or would. A lot depends on how the company is structured at the time and how dedicated they are to using plastic for units.

Of course, they could just start a new game from scratch designed and dedicated to being a 40K buster before then. They have the talent now to do so, whether they are willing to take the massive risk in resources, is another story.

Plastic is a cheaper material - especially for small unit runs like PP uses in WM/H. I fully expect that it will eventually replace all the figs in the line - but after seeing the Finecast debacle, I'm sure the folks at PP are both wary and careful about making that switch.

I don't think they particularly need to make a 40k-buster. They were a distant second place behind GW in terms of popularity, and GW's missteps have allowed them to close the gap considerably. Trying to make a 40k-buster is as shortsighted as making a WoW-killer MMO - it closes off attempts to make the best game system possible while locking yourself into tunnel vision on what aspects you want to have/not-have. You end up with a product that is very similar because you took the base system and 'fixed' it. But you still have the problem of the people you are enticing with similar mechanics already have an investment in the old system, and you offer nothing new - so it's harder to pull them away or keep them from switching back.

Honestly, I enjoy the current environment, with a bunch of new skirmish games with significant followings. They all offer different systems and feels. Oddly, with all the other games also encroaching on GW's territory, I think GW is in the same position as the Imperium - still the strongest group on the block, but losing ground on all fronts, remaining powerful because of their wide support base and resources rather than innate superiority. Unlike the Imperium, GW can still improve it's position, but we'll see what happens when 6th hits.

[MrGiggles]

For my part, my group and I periodically look at other stuff. Somehow, we keep coming back to 40K. While I like to paint a variety of things, not everyone does. We're pretty spread out and we manage to get together five or six times annually. Most of us have sizable 40K armies, both painted and in progress. It's just not a recipe for switching systems.

As to 6th Ed, I expect the release will be pretty standard. I'll like some things, dislike others and for the most part, have to play a few games to really get it.