Allies and Scenery - Game breaking or Enhancing?

[wittdooley]

First up, when it comes to 'game breaking' blame the individual player. It's clear that the 'page 5' of 40k is about telling a story. Give your battle a backstory. Build up grudges.

The result of the game should be secondary to the playing.

For instance, I am tempted to add some Guardsmen to my Nercons, to represent mind shackled slaves. But first, I need to beat an IG Player, how else am I meant to get those Scarabs into their cortex? After a string of victories, I can start looking at including more exotic IG units, and bigger Bastions and defences.

They add an extra dimension to the game for players to explore. And if someone chooses to exploit rather than explore, then that's their call. I'll play them, but likely only once.

Um. I unabashedly love that idea.

[Anggul]

Also don't forget that you have to have an HQ and a Troops choice from your ally of choice before you can have anything else. This means you won't be able to just throw in some Long Fangs or Broadsides, you'll have to have a Shas'el/Shas'O and Fire Warriors first (Presumably, although I'd like to know how 1+ requirements will work with allies), or a Space Wolves HQ and Grey Hunters.

These will, of course, still provide great benefits, but at least you can't just take one unit which will really help, you have to accommodate for the others too (Not that getting to have a squad of Grey Hunters with meltaguns in your army is ever a downside to taking Long Fangs or some such thing).



As for people complaining that Tyranids can't ally with Imperial Guard as Genestealer cultists, the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't fight alongside the cults, the cults just sow confusion beforehand with no actual knowledge of what Tyranids are or why the Genestealers are there. When the Hive Ships turn up, they slaughter all without discrepancy, and the cultists will fight back for their lives. The cultists just know their cult, when they rise up it's for their Patriarch, not for the Hive Mind, which they have no clue about.

[Mr Mystery]

Also don't forget that you have to have an HQ and a Troops choice from your ally of choice before you can have anything else. This means you won't be able to just throw in some Long Fangs or Broadsides, you'll have to have a Shas'el/Shas'O and Fire Warriors first (Presumably, although I'd like to know how 1+ requirements will work with allies), or a Space Wolves HQ and Grey Hunters.

These will, of course, still provide great benefits, but at least you can't just take one unit which will really help, you have to accommodate for the others too (Not that getting to have a squad of Grey Hunters with meltaguns in your army is ever a downside to taking Long Fangs or some such thing).



As for people complaining that Tyranids can't ally with Imperial Guard as Genestealer cultists, the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't fight alongside the cults, the cults just sow confusion beforehand with no actual knowledge of what Tyranids are or why the Genestealers are there. When the Hive Ships turn up, they slaughter all without discrepancy, and the cultists will fight back for their lives. The cultists just know their cult, when they rise up it's for their Patriarch, not for the Hive Mind, which they have no clue about.

Cultists and Hybrids, Magus included, all willingly give themselves to the Hive Mind.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If Sisters can ally with Dark Eldar, feels pretty silly to say that the Hive Mind can't assume control over the indoctrinated Cultists. Plus, the fluff is FILLED with Tyranid-mind-control-brain-bug-things. The 'nids restriction wouldn't be AS bad if all the other armies had similarly strict ally rules.

[Black Hydra]

Cultists and Hybrids, Magus included, all willingly give themselves to the Hive Mind.

Primaris Psyker and a squad of veteran IG as Brood Brothers.

[Anggul]

Cultists and Hybrids, Magus included, all willingly give themselves to the Hive Mind.

Forgot that part. Not even a fight then, just straight-up devouring. Either way it makes it quite clear that the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't 'ally' with the cultists, it just goes over the planet and eats everything no matter what it is. It's quicker and more efficient, by that point they don't need the help of the cultists, the planet is, in all but extreme cases, already doomed.

[Black Hydra]

Forgot that part. Not even a fight then, just straight-up devouring. Either way it makes it quite clear that the actual Tyranid swarm doesn't 'ally' with the cultists, it just goes over the planet and eats everything no matter what it is. It's quicker and more efficient, by that point they don't need the help of the cultists, the planet is, in all but extreme cases, already doomed.

I posted a list in the allies list building thread with IG having Tyranid Genestealer allies. That works doesn't it? You can use a Tyranid Prime as a Patriarch stand in. Maybe some Ymgarl Genestealers to boot.

[Mr Mystery]

I posted a list in the allies list building thread with IG having Tyranid Genestealer allies. That works doesn't it? You can use a Tyranid Prime as a Patriarch stand in. Maybe some Ymgarl Genestealers to boot.

I think a lot of it is going to depend on what your opponents let you get away with.

A Guard force with all bells and whistles, plus Genestealers might be pushing it a bit. But, keeping the Guard relatively low tech with some Genestealerrs and a Prime? That works better.

For one, I'll let my opponents do whatever as long as it's themeatically justified. Grey Knights with Daemons - That's a no from me, just jars too much. But...using the Inquisitorial aspects of the book alone, that I can get behind.

This is very much the sort of thing that lets you spot a powergaming waac goon an absolute mile off. Oh look. You've combined Grey Knights with Death Company. Why no sir, I don't really fancy giving you a game, on account I suspect you're a bit of a knobber.....

Though for all my lofty ideals, I'm definitely not above taking Blood Angels allies in my Necrons, just to irritate the hell out of fluff ****s!

[harveydent]

there's another aspect to allowing armies to 'mix-and-match' and that is that GW is notorious for playtesting their armies poorly. when they attempt to develop and test a new codex, now they must not only test every possible army variant from THAT codex, but every potential army variant that utilizes units from other armies.

additionally, when they decide to print a new version of a codex, they are not just potentially invalidating old units from the main codex (making the previous incarnation of the core army unplayable), but also potentially eliminating that army's units from every army that was able to take the other's units as allies.

there is just so much potential for doing all the wrong things with this ally stuff... believe me when i say this, because it's just like allowing players to mix-and-match factions in any other game (a lot like many CCGs do it), and i have been a CCG developer that's had to deal with this kind of integration problem. it's horrendous.

[Anggul]

I posted a list in the allies list building thread with IG having Tyranid Genestealer allies. That works doesn't it? You can use a Tyranid Prime as a Patriarch stand in. Maybe some Ymgarl Genestealers to boot.

Yeah that sounds good, cool idea. I'm just talking about full-on Tyranid swarms with Trygons and everything allying with cultists.