Special Power "axes"

[Chris*ta]

I think I just found the answer.

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

So the axe is a unique weapon, putting it under the rules for Unusual power weapons, making it AP3 and striking at Initiative.

Glaives Encarmine may or may not also fall under this rule.

They are listed in a special entry for the Sanguinary Guard. They are not detailed in the Wargear section. However, more than just the SG can wield them.

I hate to poke a sleeping bear, but this doesn't solve it.

This defines unique item. However, the BDAB (I'm using this contraction until someone comes out with a better one. Yay for whoever coined it earlier in the thread!) says a weapon with UNIQUE RULES.

So, let's all return to our corners and prepare for round 2!

I'm inclined to believe that GW intends it to be a master-crafted power axe, but I don't think anyone would have much trouble if you wanted to treat it as a master-crafted power sword.

Remember also that, as the rules stand, you could model your own counts-as-Dante and arm him with whichever power weapon you like.

It would've been really nice if GW had put this in the faq, but I think it's clear that master-crafted power weapons are meant to have a weapon type.

[Mesi]

Yes, lets get completely caught up on individual words which have no bearing on the context of the argument. Axe Mortalis is unique. Therefore is subject to the unique power weapons rule. If they wanted it to be a power axe they would have FAQ'd it like they did with Kharne.

The evidence to it being a standard AP3 power weapon is so overwhelming this argument is beyond stupid.

Master Crafted, rather you like it or not is in fact an additional special rule. So is 'two handed' They are listed specifically in the 'Special Rules' Section of the rulebook. Where is the debate in that?

"If the weapon has no further special rules..." This condition must be met in order to proceed to the next line. Since it is in fact not met, because master crafted is in fact a special rule. Regardless of your desires otherwise. It defaults to AP3.

The Codex itself says the Axe is a unique weapon and therefore follows the rules for unique Power Weapons.

Case in point, Kharnes axe is very obviously a unique weapon with unique rules. Also Lemartes, they very specifically verified what they wanted it to be. If they wanted Dante's axe to be AP2, thus negating his initiative of 6 which is arguably one of his best stats and effectively making him useless. Then they would have FAQ'd his axe to in fact be a power axe like they did with Kharne and a power maul with Lemartes.

The fact that they FAQ's Lemartes weapon points to the obvious conclusion that the rules would have suggested it was a normal power weapon at AP3 because of the master crafted special rule. But they wanted it to be a power maul making it an exception to the rules. Thus the FAQ.

There are literally three separate rules all saying it's an AP3 power weapon. And multiple FAQ examples proving the intent of these rules that state it's an AP3 weapon. This isn't even a debate anymore.

Those trying to argue in favor of it being a power axe really have no credible arguments. You are nitpicking over minute words and probing dictionary definitions in order to support your straw man arguments. When the rules are completely clear if you stop trying to read fine print that doesn't exist.

This does in fact imply that you will not have any generic master crafted power axes, mauls, spears ect. Which is largely irrelevant since you cannot add master crafted as an upgrade to a weapon anymore in any semi recent Codex. And if they want a piece of gear to be specialized as such they would FAQ it. Just as they did with Lemartes or state it specifically in new codex rules.

[Chris*ta]

Read p. 61 again. It does not mention unique weapons at all. It says weapons with unique rules.

It seems pretty clear to me (from the GK weapons) that they mean unique rules to mean rules that affect the S, I and (in new codexes) AP of the attack.

Also, you may note that I've said that I, and, I think, most people, would be happy for you to treat it as AP 3 S and I as wielder if you want.

There are literally three separate rules all saying it's an AP3 power weapon. And multiple FAQ examples proving the intent of these rules that state it's an AP3 weapon. This isn't even a debate anymore.

Those trying to argue in favor of it being a power axe really have no credible arguments. You are nitpicking over minute words and probing dictionary definitions in order to support your straw man arguments. When the rules are completely clear if you stop trying to read fine print that doesn't exist.

This is very clearly still a debate, or else they're would be a consensus. And that was my first post in this thread, so calm down on the accusations. Also, you seem to be using straw man incorrectly.

"Nitpicking over minute words". Like "unique". And "axe".

[Chris*ta]

Oh yeah, and the argument that Lemartes weapon is specified in the FAQ I don't trust.

It's just as likely that GW left it out because a) they thought it was obvious that an axe is an axe b) they wanted to leave the option for player to have counts-as-Dantes armed with other weapons OR c) (and this is my favourite) they're GW and they left it out by accident. Wouldn't be the worst oversight in GW FAQ history.

[Mesi]

This is very clearly still a debate, or else they're would be a consensus. And that was my first post in this thread, so calm down on the accusations. Also, you seem to be using straw man incorrectly.

"Nitpicking over minute words". Like "unique". And "axe".

There really isn't. The word Axe is largely irrelevant. Axe Mortalis is the weapons name. Unique Weapon/Rules can be interchanged at anytime, its GW after all. Just as 'special' and 'unique' by GW standards really can be interchanged at any given time. As well as practical application in the real world.

Thus you are nitpicking over insignificant interpretations of words in order to support your argument. Taking the words out of the context they are meant to be used in, which is the definition of a straw man argument.

And there is still zero debate about the condition in the Power Weapon rules itself. Master Crafted is a special rule. The weapon has additional special rules, this is not debatable at all.

There isn't a consensus because people are stubborn and refuse to use simple logic. It's human nature. But the rules are perfectly clear. These are not legal documents, it's GW. Stop trying to read the rules to the furthest extent of every single individual definition of each word to try and misconstrue the meaning.

The FAQs already out give supporting examples to how the rules are intended to work.

[Mesi]

Oh yeah, and the argument that Lemartes weapon is specified in the FAQ I don't trust.

It's just as likely that GW left it out because a) they thought it was obvious that an axe is an axe b) they wanted to leave the option for player to have counts-as-Dantes armed with other weapons OR c) (and this is my favourite) they're GW and they left it out by accident. Wouldn't be the worst oversight in GW FAQ history.

The singled out Kharn and Lemartes, and probably a couple others I haven't read every single FAQ yet, but are you suggesting they chose to leave out Dante, Glaive Encarmines, The Executioners Axe, ect? GW does often make oversights but leaving out that many would be quite a significant one. I have a little more faith in them then that.

[Chris*ta]

Thus you are nitpicking over insignificant interpretations of words in order to support your argument. Taking the words out of the context they are meant to be used in, which is the definition of a straw man argument.

That is not the definition of straw man. Not even close: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man[/url] .

[Chris*ta]

The singled out Kharn and Lemartes, and probably a couple others I haven't read every single FAQ yet, but are you suggesting they chose to leave out Dante, Glaive Encarmines, The Executioners Axe, ect? GW does often make oversights but leaving out that many would be quite a significant one. I have a little more faith in them then that.

So, you ignored my options a and b.

And, glaive encarmines do not have unique rules, so are whatever they are modelled as.

Executioner's Axe has unique rules as I believe GW meant to define it (i.e. a weapon with rules that modify the S, I and AP).

[Mesi]

That is not the definition of straw man. Not even close: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man[/url] .

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person A has position X.
Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]

4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.


See definition number two. "quoting words out of context" At least read what you're linking me before trying to say I'm wrong.

In this case people are taking the words unique, special, Axe Mortalis, out of context and using them to support their argument.

[Chris*ta]

There really isn't. The word Axe is largely irrelevant. Axe Mortalis is the weapons name. Unique Weapon/Rules can be interchanged at anytime, its GW after all. Just as 'special' and 'unique' by GW standards really can be interchanged at any given time. As well as practical application in the real world.

"The word axe is largely irrelevant" In an argument deciding whether or not the Axe Mortalis is an axe.

Special and unique can not be interchanged in the real world.

Also, I don't think 'unique weapon' and 'weapon with unique rules' can be interchanged at any time. They say different things.