Why Eldar players tend to be cranky.

[Anggul]

Please do stop playing eldar.. ill keep doing it and doing very well.. FLYERS are not the end all be all

i took most of this in jest until this comment...."Seriously though, it isn't about sympathy more just some acknowledgement that Eldar players have had to put up with an awful lot in the past decade so when they get a bit cranky there are actual reasons for it..." scuse me? get over yourself already

my god your army still is a viable option if you just learned how to play it
you whine about all the psychers in the other armies yet you can butt cold stop them all from ever casting anything.. and yet you whine

you havent had a book in how long you waited half the time the orks and wolves and DE players did so shut up already (dark eldar got a book that was worse then the one before) and is even more so in 6th

templars are older then yours is and now they are unplayable.. eldar are still a very viable army in 6th and more so when the next dex is out templars wont have a dex for 3 years at the soonest so for 3 years an army i have played for 10 years will sit on the shelf as they are unplayable you get 0 sympathy from the rest of us

RUNES OF WARDING ... nuff said... and you whine about njal 3+ to negate your casting? hypocrites
oh yeah ghost helm.. STOP for the love of god stop whining about your psychic nerf.. your preaching to def ears

vibro cannons... end armor and flyers... a 50 point model that can kill any flyer in the game in 1 round.. i feel so sorry for you

wraithguard end armor and alot of other stuff
pathrfinders now have a valid purpose

wahhhhh we dont own the skies our... 4+ save nothing over str 8 1d6 super boost is gone now ill cry some purple panther tears for you..


maybe you should read the new rule set and adjust your armies like everyone one else has too

face it the eldar still are a major force they have to do it slightly different now oh boy.. ill actually feel sorry for you if they army is unplayable and un winnable but it isnt.. dont post a whining rant and claim its in jest it doesnt come across in jest and all it does is make those who play multiple armies laugh at you

While I agree that Eldar are now better than before and we should mostly be happy by the changes... pretty much everything you have said here is complete crap and doesn't validate the point at all.

There are good things to say against those who suggest that Eldar really, really suck, but these are none of them.

1. It IS a bigger deal for Eldar to have their powers stopped, as Eldar rely far, far more upon psychic powers than any other army. No, no, Grey Knights do not, Grey Knights do fine even without the powers, the powers are just a boost.

2. Wraithguard have always been good, but until they make a plastic kit, they're far too expensive.

3. Pathfinders are still stupidly over-priced.

4. Yes, yes it is stupid that the Eldar have crappy flyers compared to the Imperium when they're meant to be awesome in the air. This is simple fact which is undeniable.


I play multiple armies, and Eldar are just one of them. Yes, Eldar are still decent. The negative points that have been made about them, however, are still true and valid, and although they are usable, there are a lot of options which are terrible. Just because you can make a good army with them, doesn't mean they're good, as people want to play with the models they like, rather than the ones they have to use to make a decent list. So kindly stop being an obnoxious moron and actually consider what is being said and reply in a decent manner rather than coming across as a fool.

[Chronowraith]

I play multiple armies, and Eldar are just one of them. Yes, Eldar are still decent. The negative points that have been made about them, however, are still true and valid, and although they are usable, there are a lot of options which are terrible. Just because you can make a good army with them, doesn't mean they're good, as people want to play with the models they like, rather than the ones they have to use to make a decent list. So kindly stop being an obnoxious moron and actually consider what is being said and reply in a decent manner rather than coming across as a fool.

While I disagree with the way rle68 is framing his arguments I do feel he is correct on the state of the Eldar. I laid out many boosts in power in my post above and many of those are sizeable gains in power. The nerfs that hit the Eldar on the other hand, hit every race/faction in the 40k universe. You can't blame 6th edition for making changes that impacted the Eldar a little more severely than other races. We have a codex that was made for 4th Edition. It worked VERY well in 4th, it worked passably in 5th, it still works passably in 6th. On an anecdotal level, I've played 3 games of 6th edition and won all three so far (vs. Chaos, Space Marines, and Grey Knights).

People need to look at the army book and see what has improved, as there are quite a few items out there that have improved, and see how they can work those into their lists. Stop trying to use a 4th edition square peg in a 5th edition round hole. Put the toy down, take your square peg, and then see how it fits in the framework of 6th edition.

Do Eldar generals need to make adjustments? Aboslutely. At this rate the only armies that don't need anything more than fine adjustments are Grey Knights, who were horribly overpowered in 5th, and the Necrons who were written with a forward-looking nod towards 6th edition.

I run a Yme-Loc craftworld army that is extremely tank heavy. So far in 6th I have dropped most of my Wave Serpents as well as my howling banshees in favor of other troops more amenable to 6th edition.

[Archon Charybdis]

i do believe that eldar players have overlooked the new psychic powers.

The new powers are great if you're running a bike or footslogging Farseer, and don't care to buff any units inside transports. If you're like me and have generally run your Farseer in a Wave Serpent with Dire Avengers for a doom/guide bladestorm, you're stuck with the old powers to be able to ignore LOS.

[eldargal]

No, Eldar are not ok. They need a new book, that is the cause of most of the problems, but it doesn't change the fact that we have gone from having a variety of mech and foot builds viable to a few builds of foot viable only. I don't want to bloody play footdar, I don't give a **** that some units got buffed if I can't play the army the way I WANT TO! Our assault units are virtually useless because we can't get to the enemy without being shot to pieces, thanks to the changes to disembarkation. Our fragile vehicles that were reliant on holofields and energy shields to keep them alive can no logner do so, they will get glanced to death. Etc.

I'm sure if you want to run a wraithguard/pathfinder footdar list you will be thrilled. I don't want too, so I'm not.

I've taken Howling Banshees in EVERY game I've played in 17 years, because I love them. Now I'm expected to take wraithguard (old models which I dislike) or pathfinders to get the job done? Sod that, I'll just wait for a new codex.

LEt's make a list:

Avatar: Good for footdar, bad for mech still. Same
Farseers: Still great, boost against other psykers bar GK. Better
Seer Council: Still great, still hugely expensive. Much the same
Autarch: Still bad, Farseers can do reserve manipulation better. Worse
Dire Avengers: Still good, bladestorm on overwatch is nice. Same
Howling Banshees: Would be a good power armour killer if they could be delivered to the enemy intact (see Wave Serpent). Worse
Fire Dragons: Still great, can't do my favoured combo of Fire Dragons and Banshees anymore though (see wave serpent) Same
Striking Scorpions: Can't assault after infiltrating anymore, can't assault after disembarking. Worse.
Dark Reapers: Extremely expensive, limited utility. Same
Swooping Hawks: Can glance stuff to death in assault, can't assault after deep striking. Lucky to survive that long. Still bad. Same
Warp Spiders: Get a I10 strike in an assault, relatively pointless as they are a shooty unit. Still Ok. Same.
Shining Spears: Still ok, still highly expensive. More durable, laser lance worse than before (AP4 instead of ignores armour). Slightly worse.
Rangers/Pathfinders: Much better, still expensive, still not enough firepower to be relied on as a troops choice. Better
Guardians: Still terrible. Same
Vypers: Slightly boosted by jink and squadron rule changes. Still fragile and expensive with anything other than s-cannons or scatter lasers. Slightly better.
Falcon: Gains jink and ability to move 12" and fire two weapons. Remains overpriced, can be glanced to death more easily thanks to hull points. Holofields useless. Worse.
Fire Prism: Gains jink and ability to move 12" and fire two weapons. Holofields useless. Blast weapon does full S against partial hits now. Much the same/slightly better.
War Walers: AV10, 2 HP, even more fragile than before, still a cheap way of putting out a lot of S6 shots. Nor worthless, but still: Worse
Support Weapons: T7 2W, much, much better. Better
Wave Serpent: Gains jink and ability to move 12" and fire two weapons. Energy field virtually useless, still protects against high S weapons, gets glances to death easily, units can no longer assault after disembarking. Hugely expensive for what it does. Much worse, undermines mech lists almost completely.
Wraithguard: Still good, still expensive, still slow. Same.
Wraithlord: Boosted like all MCs. Better.
Harlequins: Possibly boosted if FAQ is accurate, still very expensive, still very fragile, still hard to deliver intact to the enemy. Much the same, perhaps slight boost due to importance of AP2 from rending.
Eldrad: Still great. Same
Yriel. Ignores saves, perhaps better than before as a result. Slightly better.
Phoenix Lords: Still need ++saves, still overpriced, slightly less vulnerable due to PW nerf. Same

So for me, judging by my playstyle we have 7/ Better, 11/12 Same and 7 worse, one being wave serpents which completely removed my ability to play the army the way I want too.

This doesn't take into account the severe nerfing most of our FW units have taken as well. If you are happy with teh way the army plays now, I'm very pleased for it. But don't go calling me a whiner just because I don't want to use units I don't like in a way I don't like to have a viable army. I'm with with edition adaptation, but there is a difference between a new paradigm and having most of the builds in a codex invalidated.

[Morbid]

No, Eldar are not ok. They need a new book, that is the cause of most of the problems, but it doesn't change the fact that we have gone from having a variety of mech and foot builds viable to a few builds of foot viable only. I don't want to bloody play footdar, I don't give a **** that some units got buffed if I can't play the army the way I WANT TO! Our assault units are virtually useless because we can't get to the enemy without being shot to pieces, thanks to the changes to disembarkation. Our fragile vehicles that were reliant on holofields and energy shields to keep them alive can no logner do so, they will get glanced to death. Etc.

I'm sure if you want to run a wraithguard/pathfinder footdar list you will be thrilled. I don't want too, so I'm not.

I've taken Howling Banshees in EVERY game I've played in 17 years, because I love them. Now I'm expected to take wraithguard (old models which I dislike) or pathfinders to get the job done? Sod that, I'll just wait for a new codex.

Sounds to me like you refuse to adapt. You are acting like no other armies suffer from the exact same issues Eldar do. If you have been playing for 17 years, you would know that rule changes make one need to change it up. I don't use Wraithguard in my footdar, but I could as I own 13 wraith models.

I still hear the banshee nerf and it was a bit of a hit but not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. If terrmies are a big deal to your footdar list, you ARE playing them wrong.

So you can cry for Eldar to magically have a new book in your hand tomorrow, or you can adapt and come out with a new strat that will leave people scratching their heads. Your call.

[eldargal]

There is a difference between adapting and no longer being able to use your favourite units in an army AT ALL.

I never mentioned termies. I seldom assaulted terminators with Banshees, not unless they had been well and truly softened up first. Banshees are useless in a mech list because they have to stand around for a whole turn being shot at/assaulted and then hoping their target is still in their threat range. The fact is I can't even get them near regular power armour without being shot to pieces first and then losing a couple more to Overwatch, largely due to the completely inescusable lack of assault vehicles and the change to disembarkation. This rule does affect Eldar more than most other armies because few other armies are so reliant on vehicles to get their assault troops into position ,and those that are tend to have the option for assault ramps or some such thing.


Yes, I could adapt. Or I could just accept that I can't play my army the way I want to and wait for a new book. Nothing about this changes the fact that thanks to changes in 6th the number of vialbe builds has dwindled.

Also, I'm not actually 'crying'. I'm just pointing out how badly the book has fared in the transition. What does piss me off, though, is patrnising little snots who think just because their build works anyone else whose doesn't is 'whining' or 'crying'.

Also, other armies have problems with 6th too, I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean that Eldar don't either. It is entirely possible to discuss how a codex is affected both negatively and positively without referring to other codices. However, Eldar are in an unusually bad position in that they are an expensive, elite army that is no longer elite due to edition creep over two editions.

[Sainhann]

While I do agree with Eldargal in some aspects about the current Eldar Codex, I.E. units are over cost and the selection is not great in a few areas.

But if she has been playing Eldar for 17 years, which is just a few years short of when they were in White Dwarf 127, I.E. July 1990.

[url]http://www.gamehobby.net/white_dwarf_magazine/white_dwarf_127.html[/url]

Then she would have played Footdar because that is all they really could do 22 years ago and even that had some major restrictions.

I should know because that was when I started playing them. Though they were actually my 2nd army. My first were Harlequins.

I have had to rearrange my Guardians along with several of my other units as well.

I had to drop my converted Heavy Weapons Guardians because the squads went to Support Platforms, I have lost the use of nearly half my Guardians because they are armed with Las Guns. Oh and these are not easy to convert over to Shuriken Catapults due to them being metal.

Oh and at the same time my Guardians who did have Shuriken Catapults got their range cut in half. Oh and my Harleguins became completely illegal.

So I know GW track record with the Eldar and that record has been nothing but nerfing the hell out of them.

So now we have 6th Edition and yes Mech Eldar got hit hard. But so did every other armies vehicles.

The new Codex is still months away and I am not sure just what GW will do to the Eldar.

But until then we need to think and actually rethink just how we build our lists.

Yes, you can't not count on any vehicle lasting for long but that does not mean to cut every single vehicle out of your list.

As I have stated before a Squadron of War Walkers can be good if you use them well and protect them with cover. Also a Squadron of Vypers can also be useful and they can be had for 210 points and have 21 str 6 shots.

Yes you would need to take some Jet Bikes since that will give them some cover.

Dire Avengers are still good and should be ran in two Squads of 10 so that you can coordinate their Bladestorming ability.

I would even consider running a few squads of 20 Guardians and have some Banshees to back them up in case they get charged.

I know that nearly every single Eldar player just loves Eldrad but I would just run with a plain Farseer and use the points that you save for something else.

You want vehicles then get some Dark Eldar and use theirs. Buggers are far cheaper and you can assault from them. Oh, and Dark Eldar can get Harlequins just like we can.

I would also use Rangers though would only convert them to Pathfinders only with you have the points. I would go with Squads of 5 or 6 since that keeps their point cost down.

The days of the small Elite Mech Eldar army are over because if you try fielding an army of mostly vehicles expect them to get shot out of the sky by turn three.

Hell I would consider running some Imperial Guard as Allies since you can address several of the areas that our current Codex lacks.

But for 6th Edition I would be thinking Firepower and lots of it.

But whatever you do remember you are still playing an Eldar army and it does have its weaknesses.

But it can also be fast and powerful as well.

Until more Anti-Aircraft support come out many players will be running with Flyers and you need to adapt, like it or not.

[Morbid]

This rule does affect Eldar more than most other armies because few other armies are so reliant on vehicles to get their assault troops into position ,and those that are tend to have the option for assault ramps or some such thing.

Tell that to Chaos Berserker builds, oh and Ork speed freaks, Oh and Dark Eldar, Oh and GK, Oh wait and SW, Oh and don't forget Vanilla Marines, OH and tell that to Imperial Guard, OH and don't forget Necrons, OH and don't forget Blood Angels.

Notice a pattern? All lists that use transports we're hurt badly (okay Crons not as much :P). Somehow Eldar, whom had a few strong footdar builds in 5th, are more hurt than all the armies that I mentioned that also got badly hurt by the transport nerf?
Don't buy the hype.

Yes Eldar could use a new Codex, but so could my Dark Angels as well as Tau.

Play the build you want how you want it. If I lose with my footdar, I wont come online to cry for them to get buffed, I will shake my opponents hand and have a beer with them and talk about the game. Much better for scene imo.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

People, let's calm down. Let's not insult each other and start a fight. The Eldar have taken some very severe hits lately, and I agree with the points laid out by DrLove and eldargal, I was thinking of making an Eldar army until all of this came to light, now I'm not so sure. My army (Necrons) have won every game of 6th that I have played, because THEY WERE WRITTEN FOR IT. So please, stop with all of this madness.

[eldargal]

Cost of basic rhino: 35pts
Cost of basic Wave Serpent: 100points.

Toughness and save of basic SM unit: 4 3+
Toughness and save of basic eldar unit: 3 5+

Marines still have an assault vehicle, too. Eldar do not.

Necron Ghost Ark is no longer worth taking? Too bad, lucky for you you still get the Night Scythe that carries 50% more models and has an Assault 4 S7 cannon strapped to it for the same cost as a wave serpent with a popgun.

Raiders, in comparison, still get a 5++ can DE units can assault out of them. All for half the cost of a wave serpent. They were fragile before, they are fragile now. They are no worse than before. The same cannot be said of wave serpents.


The fact is a huge number of builds are invalidatd by 6th. That the same happens to other armies is irrelevent, I'm talking about the Eldar codex. Is it the end of the world? No. Is it going to be permanent? No. Has it happened? Yes. The end. I don't need some obnoxious little cretin telling me I'm 'crying' just for pointing out the bloody obvious, or telling me that other armies have suffered too. I know that, it doesn't change the fact Eldar have been hit hard.