Additional Attacks with furioso and Blood Talons

[Echo9x]

This past weekend my BA played against Necrons and after my Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons assaulting a unit of Warriors the question was quickly raised if the additional attacks caused by the blood talons eliminates all models within the engagement range can he still keep generating attacks? My opponent sited page 23 of the rulebook stating that the models left were unengaged and thus could not be part of the combat.
I think this becomes a bit tricky because the attacks are not done simultaneously, they are only generated after an unsaved wound is caused, however they are occurring in the same initiative step. Feedback with references either to an FAQ or rules entry would be appreciated. I have yet to find a solid solution.

[Archon Charybdis]

1.) The note on unengaged models on pg. 23 says they cannot make attacks themselves; it's irrelevant to the question of whether they can be targetted in combat, which is addressed directly on pg. 25: "Note that it is possible for all of the models in the target unit to be hit, wounded and killed, including those that are not engaged."

2.) Generated after the fact or not, the extra attacks are still resolved at I4, and the second bullet point under Allocating Wounds on pg. 25 comes into play: "If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model."

So your Furioso can keep attacking until the whole squad is dead, even the unengaged models. Despite the way some people have been crying over anti-vehicle grenades actually being useful against vehicles now, Furiosos are still very deadly against most units.

[Nachodragon]

I don't think it applies at the time of the Blood Talon extra attacks, but at some point the Furioso would become unengaged himself, not necessarily the enemy models, but the model making the attacks.

BUT, I think the current ruling would be the Furioso continues to melt the enemy unit regardless of who is in base to base.

[Archon Charybdis]

I'm not sure if I exactly follow you Nachodragon, but I believe what you're saying is it's possible for the Furioso to kill enough enemy models there are none left to attack it back, which is correct. Technically I suppose that makes the Furioso "unengaged" at that point, but the rulebook doesn't really address models becoming unengaged after they've already struck that turn. Engagement is determined at your Initiative Step each round, so even if you kill off a whole mess of models in one round, you'll still have at least two subsequent pile-in moves before your Initiative Step in the next Fight sub-phase.

[Echo9x]

I'm starting to feel that the key to this is, was the Furioso engaged at the start of his Initiative step, the answer is yes. As such considering you are still on this initiative step he has the possibility to continue to fight. Page 25 above the bottom right photo states "Note that it is possible for all models in the target unit to be hit, wounded and killed, including those that are not engaged." Now I feel that this applies more to the initial strike vs wounds that are generated off of other wounds but at a quick glance it is suggestive in favor of the Furioso.

[Nachodragon]

Basically that. You could theoretically be able to get in to B2B with one model and have a trailing line of models behind it. So, quite easy to kill enough models to have them be unengaged even before you get to the extra attacks. The question I think that needs to be addressed is the attacking model would technically be unengaged at this point, so, do the rules not care (at this point, yes) or was that an oversight. And really the Furioso would only be unengaged after combat (or before).

The rulebook doesn't address how far away a model can be wounded in assault, or rather they do, which is theoretically the board. Though, it seems less-cinematic if a Furioso can tear through 50 Guardsman if he would only be able to reach maybe 10 at most. Especially if they are in coherency 'hands-across' style and are spread across the board. Only Furioso and Penitent Engine generate extra attacks (that I have found) so it is not a huge game breaking thing that affects every army or anything.

[Echo9x]

I tend to agree with Nachodragon that this isn't a game breaker by any means. I think it is also important to note that we are playing an inanimate game which technically simulates very cinematic events. Just because to our eyes the Furioso is standing 3" from his opponents he should be plowing through them without issue.

[thecactusman17]

The assault rules cover this entirely. It is 100% possible for the Furioso or anything else to kill models outside of base to base with the extra attacks, because all these attacks are made at the same initiative step, where the model unquestionably engaged a model in base to base.

Now, if a model were to generate new attacks that strike at Initative 1 or another, lower initiative step (I think a Necron character does this), then that character would need to reengage models in order to attack, unless a rule in the weapon said otherwise.

If the models cannot reengage after the next possible initiative step, the assault ends immediately. Do not continue. The assault is over and all models disengage.

Now, THAT is frustrating, because it means that even if your Furioso killed all but one model in a mob of Orks, that model apparently doesn't even make a morale check.

[Learn2Eel]

Hmm now I know what to do to someone who likes to run Ork conga-lines......