Getting Used to Space Marines - Teach Me Terminators

[Seirin]

@Pauljc comparing wolves to vanilla is a little off, especially the pod route as vanilla termies don't get the option.

2 chainfists are good, as you say a spare can be useful. No more than 2 though, you'll never really need them.

Cyclones and assault cannons both have uses, imo. Heavy flamers are either superb or weak, depending on the opponent. Against any infantry with a 4+ or lower they really rock. Against infantry with a 3+ or better, they pretty much suck. 1 shot before combat and no overwatch due to relentless will not beat the other options in that situation, and against hordes you'll likely be deploying further back anyway, giving the cyclone the advantage with its shot options. Underestimating flamers isn't my weakness, but as a reverse of Pauljc's sentiment, many people swear too blindly on them.

Not going to question the sanity in dropping a 5 man terminator unit with 2 charas in there into the heart of the enemy...

Terminator librarian's are the only way marines have atm to make a libby tough, and they contribute more than any other non named chara unless your captain is making your bikes scoring. In other words, keep him.

As to your original question. You do need to be aggressive, but tactical terminators are good for their balance. You need to play them by ear and situation. Deep striking into a guard line is a good plan, but into a nid line you're throwing your unit away. Deploying normally against orcs is a good idea, it adds more shooting to your army. Against dark eldar it leaves them stuck footslogging to get into the thick of it, while your opponent shoots the hell out of them. Etc~

Basically, if its gonna kill you close up, don't get close, but if its gonna shoot you, get in its face asap.

[pauljc]

Yeah, Seirin, I did state the initial caveat that while some tactics remain similar, Wolf Guard are different.

Then I wandered off on a drop-pod tangent of happy memories. :P

I can definitely agree with Seirin's tactical insights as well. I guess the best thing to do, is to pinpoint some tactical uses for Termies (assault role, shooty, deep-strike, etc), work out some loadouts, and then just run them in different games.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, right now I'm running two chainfists, an assault cannon, and a heavy flamer. I'm underwhelmed by cyclonic missile launchers, as they seem to split the purpose of the unit even further. 30 points is a lot to pay to put a long range option on a unit meant to drop close to the enemy. I'm also not thrilled with it in the context of my list. I have a lot of missiles: typhoon launchers on my two land speeders and another single launcher on my hellfire dreadnought for a total of five missiles a turn.

Anyway, what I think I want to use the terminators for is as a versatile objective-clearing unit capable of taking on enemy elites or massed enemy infantry to make way for my own troops to claim the objective - alternately, like my drop sternguard, they can be thrown away as a tactical distraction. That is, dropped on a flank to fork my opponent, forcing him to either deal with my scoring units and let my own powerful offensive units take him apart, or engage my elites and let my scoring units live to claim and contest objectives.

Two questions in that case:

1) Is this a good thing to use terminators for?
2) Does the loadout I've described achieve that purpose?

[Seirin]

@Pauljc okidoki, just highlighting the main difference.

@EP
1) Yes, though they can also be used as a speartip.
2) Try not to mix special weapons, but AC and HF are both useful in their own situation. I just prefer ACs as they have better all rounded use.

Cyclone is just useful, a tough unit with 4 missiles a turn (2 cyclones) is pretty fun.

[Kyban]

I feel like I only see shooty termies when playing against Deathwing but they can split between shooty and melee however they like and hold objectives. Melee termies are more common because they are often more survivable (storm shields) which is what termies are all about.

[ElectricPaladin]

I feel like I only see shooty termies when playing against Deathwing but they can split between shooty and melee however they like and hold objectives. Melee termies are more common because they are often more survivable (storm shields) which is what termies are all about.

I'm getting that...

Increasingly, I'm thinking that I might either invest in some stabby termies eventually, or jack the ones I already have from my blood angels (who are way more likely to use sanguinary guard in that slot, anyway, especially since they're now nearly as surviveable...). Then I can paint up a blood ravens land raider for larger games...

That said, I'm convinced that shooty termies have a role. They're good in combat, have good shooting, and good upgrades. I think it's just that they require a little more finesse than hammer terminators...

[Seirin]

Just as sanguinary guard got a boost with 6th, so did tactical terminators. Less will kill them in combat now, making them closer to hammernators in durability (granted, still notably less vs plasma, etc). They basically offer a mix of both worlds and can do both roles (shooty and combat) whereas hammers just do combat, but they do it better.

[Xenith]

First problem is that you deepstruck shooty terminators.

They are shooty. They have to be shooting from T1. There used to be a purpose in DSing 5men with 2AC behind a tank and ripping it apart, but no longer. The strike makes you lose 1-2 turns of shooting, and opens you up to a plasma cannoning.

Assault termies can DS as they have no shooting, so can run to spread out.

I'm underwhelmed by cyclonic missile launchers, as they seem to split the purpose of the unit even further.

Not really.
Cyclones are awesome, as you keep the SB. And you get an additional 2 S4 blasts for killing infantry. then have the flexibility to put 4 kraks into a tank if needs be, and also let your termies reach out and touch things that are >24" away (long fangs).


I'm going to be throwing 10 tac termies into my BA army with a priest, stick them up front and advance to midfield with my tacticals behind them.

[ElectricPaladin]

First problem is that you deepstruck shooty terminators.

Isn't it sometimes useful to use deep strike as a way to put the terminators where you need them? They're a powerful expensive unit. If your opponent deploys reactively, or has some fancy redeployment power (mine did), then you can end up with almost 250 points of rage on the wrong side of the board. Terminators don't deploy in reaction to the board, because they don't claim objectives. They deploy in reaction to the enemy, because their job is to kill stuff.

Also, can't deep striking be a good way to put those rending shots into a rear armor, or a heavy flamer onto massed infantry?

Cyclones are awesome, as you keep the SB. And you get an additional 2 S4 blasts for killing infantry. then have the flexibility to put 4 kraks into a tank if needs be, and also let your termies reach out and touch things that are >24" away (long fangs).

Huh. Well, on your recommendation, I'll give it a shot. It can't hurt, and I like painting gear.

Say, do you think anyone can point me in the direction of a good tactical terminator tactica?

[ElectricPaladin]

I had an interesting game last night and I think I learned something about Terminators. My opponent fielded an blob of ten termies with two cyclonic missile launchers (and also Lysander) and had them march forward. Their cyclonics were terribly effective at range, and anything that got close enough to threaten them was shredded by their storm bolters. I had a hard time slowing them down.

I think I finally understand how to use tactical terminators, and why cyclonics are useful.

With a pair of cyclonic missile launchers, a tactical squad can march across the board, basically acting like an infantry tank. It's best to think of it more like a predator or vindicator, or maybe like a cross between a crusader and godhammer land raider. It can advance, fire powerful long range weapons, and defend itself with shredding close-range fire when necessary. With cyclonics, it's versatile, able to pop vehicles and lay blasts on infantry.

THIS is why you don't deep strike it. The potential utility of surprising your opponent or slamming cyclonics into a vehicle's side arc pale before the power of this walking ten wound tank blob that can take cover, carries a 5++ save, and unleash four 8/3 shots (or 4/6 blasts) per shooting phase.

I get it now.