Yes Zombies can go to 35, stupid being stupid people!

[DF3CT]

It isn't a frivolous point. Let's be crystal clear here. Nobody is saying they WANT (10) man zombie units. Those people arguing the RAW reads a certain way are basing it on syntax. You must use the harshest reading until they clarify it. The difference between you and I is I'm not letting my bias (read desires) color my reading of the rules. It need a Faq clarification. It will probably allow big zombie units. However, don't count your chickens. There are fluff reasons they might not. Moreover, there are game balance reasons they might not.

Pretty sure the Imeprial Armour Vraks list isn't rallied against all over the internet because you can take units of Plague Zombies in units of 10-50 because they are OP. They even have strength 4.

Quite frankly I'd be more worried about mobs of 20 Fearless CSM's with I 5 charging you down instead of a few shambling mobs that are very susceptible to pie plates.

It's not like they have poison attacks and regenerate an amount of Plague Zombies equal to the number of models they killed in combat.
NOW THAT would be awesome. I think they really missed doing some cool stuff with the new Chaos Dex and chose a more vanilla approach with, well....everything in it.

Units of 10 slow moving troops are just asking to be farmed for kill points and would be a shining example of more useless rules/troops/models that could otherwise have been fantastic and fun.

[entendre_entendre]

Ok, I'm going to examine the entire quote.

Plague Zombies: Any Chaos Cultist units (see army list, pg 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have fearless, Feel No Pain, and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon - any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their enemies to death! - p61

I feel I need to point this out as Typhus' entry specifically points out the difference between a unit of Cultists and Cultist models. The first sentence deals with units, the second models. In the sentence that has everyone riled up, if one were to reduce the plural to a singular, you would get "A Plague Zombie is a Chaos Cultist that has... and cannot take options". This means that a Zombie is a Cultist in its relation to the model/statline and in that model's ability to take options (i.e. marks/guns). A cultist does not purchase an option to increase the squad size, the unit does. The unit is made up of zombies, referring to the models only, so technically, it's not a Zombie unit, it's a unit of Zombies, if that makes any sense. :/ So it's a Cultist unit that is made up of Zombies.

The key here would be the word "unit(s)". I feel the first sentence allows you to decode the meaning of the second and I felt people were not even looking at the first enough to notice the (subtle) distinction made. Definitely needs to be Errata'd to make it 100% clear though. Too bad GW takes months for something that could be done in a week or over a coffee break with Mr. Kelly. >.>

The point about the Plague Zombies with a Cultist Champion is also junk. The Unit is nominated as being Plague zombies, so every model in the unit is a zombie, you can't declare half the unit to be zombies, for example, it's everyone or no one. This would mean there is no Cultist Champion, only Zuul- er, Zombies.

[DarkLink]

Where does it say the second sentence deals with models. I don't see that anywhere. It could refer to models, or it could refer to the unit just like the first sentence.

I am reading it by the "harshest" way possible, it states you can't purchase options the only option you can purchase are the marks, thus you can't not PURCHASE the marks. Can I get any harsher and more to the point? You're being to loose with the RAW and applying it to all the options when it clearly states that it only applies to those that you purchase.

Seriously, are you capable of reading the English language? I'm not specifically saying that to be rude, there's just no nice way to put it, what you claim and what is actually written on the page are two different things. Taking additional cultists is listed under options. You claim that it is not. You are literally incorrect. There is no interpretation here. Options = Additional bodies.

An argument can be made, sketchy as I find it, that the option to take additional bodies is not one of the options that is disallowed. But even that argument acknowledges that additional bodies are, in fact, options.

(reads codex) Not seeing where it says I'm limited to ONLY 10 zombies, it does say I can start at 10 and ADD-TO the unit for a total of 35 zombies but it does say I can't PURCHASE Marks, well that is how the RAW in the Typhus entry reads.

You can't purchase options. Additional bodies is an option.

There are arguments that jump through loopholes to dodge around this, but if you can't understand those two sentences... I really have nothing to say to that.

(claps hands) good you can read that they're in the option section.

So, wait, you claim that they're not options, then you condescendingly admit that they are, in fact, options. What is your actual argument again? I'm sensing some insane troll logic here.

They extra bodies are not purchased and are actually add-to the unit those you can add-to the unit as the RAW says you can not purchase options and the only options you can purchase are the four different marks.

Aside from the fact that your sentence doesn't make very much sense (as in I literally can't tell quite what you mean to say), I think you need to peruse a dictionary. I'll give you a hand.

purchasedpast participle, past tense of pur·chase (Verb)

Verb:

Acquire (something) by paying for it; buy.

addv. add·ed, add·ing, adds
v.tr.1. To combine (a column of figures, for example) to form a sum.
2. To join or unite so as to increase in size, quantity, quality, or scope


You are, in fact, purchasing additional bodies, as well as adding them to the squad, and since the additional bodies are clearly options, and you are not allowed to purchase options...

Neither does this absurd argument

Oh, yeah, well your argument is absurd. Take that. But seriously, your argument really is absurd.

that we can't take 35 zombies from a poorly written rule even though 97% (pulled from the Department of Made Up Numbers) of the forum here knows it will be FAQ that way.

If we're going to make up numbers, then my 97% agrees that, while they should FAQ it, RAW is very clear here. Incidentally, simply going over the responses in this thread, it seems that in fact the majority of users do in fact agree with this. One or two individuals have had a vocal opposition, but that does not make them a majority.

I sure did, I can cite pages, upload pictures of me reading the book, even a video of me reading the book out loud. Though I'll assume that your point here was more rhetorical than a question.

Pics or it didn't happen. But yes, it what rhetorical, though I'm still not convinced you didn't cover up part of the unit entry with your thumb so you could make the claim that additional bodies are not in the Options category with a straight face.

My argument here is ironclad as the argument that you can't take more than 10 zombies. Both rely on interpretation of the reading of the rule.

Which is to say that it's not ironclad at all, and in fact extremely shaky, and thus we must default to the explicit No Options rule, and since cultists are options, you can't take them.

In this case I choice to drill down to the very option you can't take, you're advocating the more liberal point of view that it applies to all options. The rule clearly states

Huh? Grammar. It helps people understand what you're trying to say. Completing sentences helps, too.

I could yes pull the RAI

Sure, whatever. I could claim that RAI was that my Grey Knights get preferred enemy against Zombie Cultists, because they've been infected with daemon essence or something and GKs have PE Daemons. That doesn't make it true.

but I'm pointing out RAW, we just different how we read the RAW and the bigger point is that if I was wrong this argument would have ended on the first page. The fact that it's still going on and that it's getting louder is that you're interpretation is wrong and counter-productive to the hobby as a whole and pushing a bad interpretation of RAW doesn't help.

...huh? Someone disagrees with my general point, and thus I'm inherently wrong because they didn't capitulate immediately? Nice logic. You're a veritable Aristotle.

Ohhh, if we're going to keep flaming, then I could compare this to holocost denial, and invoke Godwin's Law.

For the record I'm not a Chaos player, I will never be a Chaos player. I'm an IG player since 3d Edition. I just find that from time to time places like here and Dakka Dakka to name a few some times push really bad interpretation of RAW and then I have to deal with some poor sap at the tournament (against the net list they're using) trying to argue a "RAW" that in reality the interpretation was wrong because XXXX forum said so.

I've played people like you before. It's not fun to face someone who doesn't seem to understand the words written on the page and makes inane arguments over rules as a result, so hopefully you're an easygoing guy to make up for that. I once had a guy argue that, despite the fact that Premeasuring says exactly "you may measure anything at any time", that you couldn't measure outside of the shooting phase. I practically facepalmed when he stuck by the argument even when I showed him the exact wording.

[DF3CT]

Ok, I'm going to examine the entire quote.

I feel I need to point this out as Typhus' entry specifically points out the difference between a unit of Cultists and Cultist models. The first sentence deals with units, the second models. In the sentence that has everyone riled up, if one were to reduce the plural to a singular, you would get "A Plague Zombie is a Chaos Cultist that has... and cannot take options". This means that a Zombie is a Cultist in its relation to the model/statline and in that model's ability to take options (i.e. marks/guns). A cultist does not purchase an option to increase the squad size, the unit does. The unit is made up of zombies, referring to the models only, so technically, it's not a Zombie unit, it's a unit of Zombies, if that makes any sense. :/ So it's a Cultist unit that is made up of Zombies.

The key here would be the word "unit(s)". I feel the first sentence allows you to decode the meaning of the second and I felt people were not even looking at the first enough to notice the (subtle) distinction made. Definitely needs to be Errata'd to make it 100% clear though. Too bad GW takes months for something that could be done in a week or over a coffee break with Mr. Kelly. >.>

The point about the Plague Zombies with a Cultist Champion is also junk. The Unit is nominated as being Plague zombies, so every model in the unit is a zombie, you can't declare half the unit to be zombies, for example, it's everyone or no one. This would mean there is no Cultist Champion, only Zuul- er, Zombies.

Well, the Cultist Champion is a Chaos Cultist so he suffers the same fate as all his cultist friends. If for some reason Cultist formations were led by a CSM, the CSM wouldn't be turned into a zombie, even though everyone else was.


@ Darklink
Don't compare an argument and debate which has the community split across the interwebs to someone saying you can only premeasure during the shooting phase.

That's just silly.

If it was so cut and dry it wouldn't be one of the main desires for an FAQ would it?

The way that Typhus is written is broken if so many people see it differently than you do.

Certainly some of us will be eating crow when it eventually gets taken care of.

[DarkLink]

No, that was specifically directed at Flammenwerfer13's argument. I understand the general argument we're having here, even if I can't bring myself to buy it, but Flammenwerfer13's justifications are just absurd. He's not making the argument that Typhus' rule refers to models, and thus you can buy additional models so long as they don't take individual options. He's making the argument that taking additional models is not actually an option at all, despite what is actually written in the rules. His argument is absurd, the overall one I merely disagree with.

[DF3CT]

Are you denying that there is the term "unit" used to purchase options and other times "model" also used?

Rarely is a unit called out by what it is without "unit" being present.

I've asked for people to provide some other examples where a unit is meant the target of something, but merely referred by their model type/what the unit is made up of.

[DarkLink]

That's your argument? That they "usually" slap on unit, and since they didn't it obviously means model instead? Do you really think that GW has its act together enough to be that consistent with its rules?

By the way, if you're going to ask loaded questions, here's one for you: Are you denying that the Zombies are not allowed to take options, and that adding additional Cultists is clearly labeled as an option? Two can play at that game.

[DF3CT]

Again, there are instances where the "unit" purchases options and not the models themselves. I've already pointed out the Chaos Rhino as a transport which doesn't read " Chaos space marines may", it reads, the "UNIT" may.

Referring to models as "Plague zombies may or may not take" means the plague zombies themselves. The unit does not by 5 auto gun upgrades in a Chaos Cultist unit, the Chaos Cultists cost +1 point and sub out their auto pistol as an expenditure.

It is a very key word to separate equipping models personally or effects which are unit wide.

I'll make sure to bake you guys cupcakes on FAQ day so you can drown your tears in sugary treats.


"Any model may" is a very key phrase throughout all their codex books. I would ponder what that means and what "Plague zombies cannot take" mean together.

[bfmusashi]

Flammen, you're claiming a unit that can not take options can take something called an option because it might be referring to individual models instead of the entire unit even though individual models are never mentioned in the entry?
Nothing makes the second sentence in Typhus's entry mean Chaos Cultist models it only allows for it. There are several ways of reading it, the most literal is 10 plague zombies.

[Caitsidhe]

<chuckles> Regardless, it is pointless to argue about it. It is crystal clear this requires Errata/Faq treatment. The sooner it happens the better. Until such time as they do, most people I have encountered and ALL the tournaments I have played at already rule that since additional Cultists falls under the "options" heading and options are specifically prohibited by the rule on Typhus, you can only have (10) zombies. We will all get by however it pans out when they get around to putting up the CSM Faq.