Sisters of Battle and Black Templars

[Kispal]

Quick question: maybe it's cos I'm not totally immersed in the backgrounds of these two armies, but could someone please explain to me why, in the allies restrictions, they're listed as Desperate Allies? I'd've thought they'd be Battle Brothers. What am I missing?

Cheers.

[eldargal]

The SoB are part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Black Templars (and Marines in general) don't follow the Ecclesiarchy. So the SoB view the BT as a bunch of nutters of dubious loyalty (half of all SPace Marines having turned traiter afterall) while the BT view the SoB as superstitious lunatic nuns with guns.

Both sides are right, so they hate each other.

[Kispal]

Ah, I see. Thanks, very clear.

Is there anything which makes the BTs particularly hateful for the Sisters? After all, all other Chapters can be Allies of Convenience. Maybe there's something specific in the background.

Cheers.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think (can't remember clearly) that they - or, well, the force that would eventually become the Sisters - were explicitly on opposite sides in the Age of Apostasy. The Goge Vandire stuff.

[ElectricPaladin]

Ah, I see. Thanks, very clear.

Is there anything which makes the BTs particularly hateful for the Sisters? After all, all other Chapters can be Allies of Convenience. Maybe there's something specific in the background.

Cheers.

Basically? The Black Templars are particularly arrogant, zealous, violent, and douchey, while the Sisters of Battle - as humans, albeit fanatical ones - tend to emphasize things like protecting innocents and civilians. Don't forget that the Sisters of Battle are part of the same organization as Sisters who serve as phsyicians and babysitter/tutors.

[MaltonNecromancer]

There's always this assumption that because factions are ostensibly the same species/religion, they are on the same side, despite the fact that the entirety of human history teaches the complete opposite. I've always thought of it as being a bit like the Catholic/Protestant hatred in England back in the times of the Tudors all the way up through the English Civil War. Two groups who should essentially be the same, but instead violently and virulently hate each other, to the point where each group tries to exterminate the other whenever it's in power.

With the SoB vs BT, I always assumed the argument was that the SoB thought that Heretics should be tortured and burned, while the BT thought they should just be burned. Either that, or an argument over the exact angle you should bow your head when praying to the Emperor.

Don't forget that the Sisters of Battle are part of the same organization as Sisters who serve as phsyicians and babysitter/tutors.

Lest we paint the SoBs as the "nice" faction here, let's not forget that they punish those who fall from grace through:
1.) the nightmare surgery of arco-flagellation.
2.) being made to fight naked and driven to frenzy through pain, armed only with a chainsaw
3.) and finally crucified to the front of a suicide-dreadnought.

Seriously, for horrific torture, the SoB are one of the most insane factions outside of the Dark Eldar. The Black Templars will only kill you.

[Flying Tigress]

It's because having the Sisters of Battle not working well with a Space Marine chapter that loathes unsanctioned psyker and heretics makes WAY less sense than Ultramarines and Tau bro-fisting... she said, ironically...

[gcsmith]

You have to remember, the Black Templars are the most unique space marine chapter. They are still on the 'great crusade' and follow the commandments most strictly. One of those is do not worship the emperor as a god. Maybe they view the sisters as near heretics because of that.

[Flying Tigress]

That would make sense, except that the Black Templars champion any of their brothers that receive "a vision" from the Emperor on the eve of battle. While one could chaulk this up to their belief that the Emperor is the only true psyker that should exist in the universe, but obviously their fanatacism about receiving his visions places them in an obviously somewhat spiritual camp. To that end, I would think there would be some kinsmanship with Sisters, especially in light of their propensity also receive visions, and for that matter, to have members of their Adepta become eleveated to "living saints," imbued with the Emperor's power.

Also, as they like to wage wars against all transgessions against the Imperium, most notably in the instances of heresies and witchery, an alliance with the Sisters of Battle, even if its only an "Allies of Convenience," makes sense politcally. On the field of battle, certainy, Black Templars would be much more likely to be working towards the same ends as a Sisters of Battle force, certainly more so that some of the other chapters GW decided to make "allies of convenience." Like Dark Angels, for example.

A secretive and evasive chapter that guards it's secrets and will actively prevent other organizations in the Imperium from prying to closely into their affairs, being on more civil terms with an organization renowned for its intolerance and rash leaps to condemnation for all things shady? It doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Add to the fact that the Black Templars are more closely trusted by the High Lords of Terra, and one can infer therefore, the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Adepta Sororitas are the militant arm of the Ministorum, and it just makes no sense whatsoever.

[Nabterayl]

That would make sense, except that the Black Templars champion any of their brothers that receive "a vision" from the Emperor on the eve of battle. While one could chaulk this up to their belief that the Emperor is the only true psyker that should exist in the universe, but obviously their fanatacism about receiving his visions places them in an obviously somewhat spiritual camp. To that end, I would think there would be some kinsmanship with Sisters, especially in light of their propensity also receive visions, and for that matter, to have members of their Adepta become eleveated to "living saints," imbued with the Emperor's power.

I think you hit this nail on the head the first time - to a Black Templar, there is a world of difference between the Emperor being able to give visions and the Emperor being a god.

Also, as they like to wage wars against all transgessions against the Imperium, most notably in the instances of heresies and witchery, an alliance with the Sisters of Battle, even if its only an "Allies of Convenience," makes sense politcally.

I don't know ... of the four chapters that have their own codex, the Black Templars seem like the least likely to do something that goes against their principles because it makes political or tactical sense.

Add to the fact that the Black Templars are more closely trusted by the High Lords of Terra, and one can infer therefore, the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Adepta Sororitas are the militant arm of the Ministorum, and it just makes no sense whatsoever.

Well ... that might be true, but the trust would have to be reciprocal for it to affect the allies table, right? If I trust you with my life but you expect me to betray you at every turn, our ability to work together will still be miserable.