eternal warrior / force weapon clear up...?

[redrio]

OK, here in my local GW store there is 2 camps on this...

Can a force weapon instant kill something with eternal warrior? Some say yay, some say nay, the staff are no help and change their minds to suit circumstance.

I would say no but thought I'd put it out there

[Xas]

there are two types of force weapons:

a) those whose codex jsut reads "see rulebook". those do not. a simple glance over the force weapon and eternal warrior special rule will clarify. FW cause "instant death", EW means you give "instant death" the finger.

b) those whose codex has (old) own rules. DH/WH dexes have wordings that do not use "instant death" (because back then it didnt exist as a universal special rule) and so they can kill even EW modells with just causing one unsaved wound.

[redrio]

This is the argument I use but then they say "well if he can do it I can do it", then we get into the rules as written vs rules as intended argument and the "but if it was real..." argument...... It goes on and on. The staff should have stamped it out from day 1 of 5th ed.

Cheers for agreeing and clarifying!

[Nabterayl]

This is the argument I use but then they say "well if he can do it I can do it", then we get into the rules as written vs rules as intended argument and the "but if it was real..." argument...... It goes on and on.

There's nothing wrong with making house rules to unify the force weapon rules (personally I favor doing so), but it is a house rule. Xas correctly describes the rules as written.

[DarkLink]

The rules are what the rules are. It doesn't matter what you think the writers intended for the rule to be. The only person who can get away with that is the writer himself, and even then only in cases where the rule is unclear and hasn't been FAQ'd/errata'd.

Some force weapons inflict Instant Death.

Some force weapons 'kill outright'.

Which force weapons do which depends exclusively on which codex they come from. Until those old codecies get replaced, this will not change. You can choose to house-rule it, but as Nabteryal said, it is just a house-rule.

Besides, this is one of the few cases that my Grey Knights are better than vanilla marines

[trogar]

Ok not to sound like a rules lawyer but page 50 of the 5th edition rule book in the box under Froce Weapons the last sentance says "This power has no effect against vehicles, models that are immune to instant death and any other modle that does not have a wounds value." As eternal warrior grants immunity to instant death the force weapon would have no effect against the psychic power used to cause instant death. I was always told that the newest rule book out ranks an older book (in tournements at least) so older codexs should abide by this as well. Hope this helps.

[Jwolf]

Ok not to sound like a rules lawyer but page 50 of the 5th edition rule book in the box under Froce Weapons the last sentance says "This power has no effect against vehicles, models that are immune to instant death and any other modle that does not have a wounds value." As eternal warrior grants immunity to instant death the force weapon would have no effect against the psychic power used to cause instant death. I was always told that the newest rule book out ranks an older book (in tournements at least) so older codexs should abide by this as well. Hope this helps.

It helps for those Codices that don't have their own rules. Daemonhunters and Witchhunters, as mentioned above, have specific rules for Force Weapons in them, and do not follow the BRB rules.

[Aegis]

One way of looking at the difference in rules is to examine the WH/DH codex's. If you change one thing from them (i.e. how Force weapons function), then by the same logic, everything else that has been updated should be changed as well (unit costs, stock builds, etc.). Basically, you cannot pick and choose which to follow and which not to. All or nothing, as it were.

[RogueGarou]

Until the Space Wolves Codex released, our group has been using a houserule to cover things that were updated for loyal Marines only. For example, the Narthecium grants Feel No Pain so a Deathwing Apothecary equipped with a Narthecium grants Feel No Pain to his squad. New Land Raider specs had them carrying twelve models so we had played it as all loyal stock Land Raiders benefited from the higher capacity and improved Machine Spirit. This also carried over to other upgraded equipment such as Storm Shields. Our group is perfectly OK with this and everyone thought the new rules would be incorporated as Codicii were revised.

I do NOT play loyal Marines and I pretty vigorously argued that Chaos Marines should not get the new rules, where they could be applied. For the increased capacity, I feel that the older Land Raiders probably in use with the Traitor Legions have bigger, more comfortable accommodations compared to the bench seats the loyal Chapters have upgraded to over the past ten thousand years. Imagine the difference between first class and coach seating on an airplane. It could also be imagined that the Renegades are using up more space for trophies, spiky bits and the like so only ten Marines can ride. Besides, as individual and egotistical as Chaos Marines can be, and probably paranoid if they have a suit of Terminator armor, they might not want to rub elbows with their comrades.

However, this house rule may need to be rescinded since the Space Wolves Codex released and some of the upgrades were not incorporated. For instance, the Wolves Codex still lists the stock Land Raider as carrying ten models. Unfortunately for our Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templar players, we may decide they have to go back to using just what is in their respective Codicii since it looks like not all equipment will be created equal.

But as has been stated above, this was just a house rule. It was also a rule we decided on back when there were items with multiple rules depending on the Codex, like Bionics. We never adjusted the points cost, just used the most recent version of the rules. It was absolutely not official but since we primarily just play friendly games, it suited us just fine.

[Ironwinds]

One way of looking at the difference in rules is to examine the WH/DH codex's. If you change one thing from them (i.e. how Force weapons function), then by the same logic, everything else that has been updated should be changed as well (unit costs, stock builds, etc.). Basically, you cannot pick and choose which to follow and which not to. All or nothing, as it were.

Wasn't there a thing called chapter approved back in the day that cleared up all or at least attempted to clear up all of the little things when 4th came out? It didn't change every unit costs, stock builds, etc. It just changed rule differences. Where is Chapter approved 2009 I ask. I think it is needed more than the last one was.

Or at least some FAQs and Erratas. DH, DE, and Necrons have huge problems in their dexs because of rule irregularities. If it was codex SMs that had these problems they would get a new codex tomarrow... everyone else just wants an errata or update.