killing swarms

[Tynskel]

[url]http://www.thanatosrealms.com/war2/sounds/orcs/troll-axethrower/ready.wav[/url]

I think the rules have been quite clear how to allocate wounds. 1) shoot target. 2) determine target is armor or non-armor. If armor, roll to penetrate. If non-armor, roll to wound.
wait...
waiting...
wait...


Allocate wounds.
wait...
waiting...
wait...

nope, nothing about what kind of non-armor is model/unit is.

roll armor save. Armor save failed.
Ah hah! Now it becomes important what type of model has been hit, because there is now an unsaved wound.

[Necron2.0]

[url]http://www.thanatosrealms.com/war2/sounds/orcs/troll-axethrower/ready.wav[/url]

I think the rules have been quite clear how to allocate wounds. 1) shoot target. 2) determine target is armor or non-armor. If armor, roll to penetrate. If non-armor, roll to wound.
wait...
waiting...
wait...


Allocate wounds.
wait...
waiting...
wait...

nope, nothing about what kind of non-armor is model/unit is.

roll armor save. Armor save failed.
Ah hah! Now it becomes important what type of model has been hit, because there is now an unsaved wound.

Exactly. Precisely. Unequivocally.

For units comprised entirely of homogenous models, the only time you concern yourself with the models themselves is when they are being removed from the board. In this case, the rules are quite clear and explicit, no one roles armor saves on a model by model basis.

Per the rules, the exception (specifically called "Mixed Armor Saves" on page 16 and specifically mentioned as an exception) is for units containing models whose armor saves are not entirely homogenous. There is also an exception listed for units lead by an independent character, but again that is an exception and is specifically called out as an exception.

[Tynskel]

[url]http://www.thanatosrealms.com/war2/sounds/orcs/troll-axethrower/ready.wav[/url]

That is irrelevant.
There is no exception. Read the rules for swarms. The double wounds only occurs AFTER the failed armor save, not before. You have to have already allocated the wound at this point before you roll the save. You don't care that the model has a different save, only that it has wounds. The swarms rule is activated upon the save being failed. The save is only failed AFTER it has been allocated.

[Nabterayl]

[url]http://www.thanatosrealms.com/war2/sounds/orcs/troll-axethrower/ready.wav[/url]

That is irrelevant.
There is no exception. Read the rules for swarms. The double wounds only occurs AFTER the failed armor save, not before. You have to have already allocated the wound at this point before you roll the save. You don't care that the model has a different save, only that it has wounds. The swarms rule is activated upon the save being failed. The save is only failed AFTER it has been allocated.

The contrary argument seems to have been that, depending on the wound allocation method you use, a wound can become unsaved before it is allocated. I totally agree with that, so far as it goes. However, the swarms rule does not say that a wound is doubled upon the save being failed. It says that the wound is doubled upon a model suffering an unsaved wound. Only after (i) the save has been failed and (ii) the wound has been allocated to a model are we allowed to double the wound.

[Tynskel]

Again, I do not see what the issue is. If the wound is 'unsaved' but has not been allocated, no unit individual model has been harmed.

there is no way to have an 'unsaved' wound become un-'unsaved'. FNP negates the wound from ever occurring, otherwise it would count toward combat resolution, which it clearly does not.



seriously, this whole argument is bunk.
[url]http://www.thanatosrealms.com/war2/sounds/orcs/troll-axethrower/ready.wav[/url]

[Nabterayl]

I didn't say it was a good argument. I only said that's what the argument was. I've spent this entire thread arguing that it was a bad argument, and I'm pleased to see that GW felt that the question could be disposed of in an FAQ, instead of in an amendment or erratum.

[Magpie]

Exactly. Precisely. Unequivocally.

For units comprised entirely of homogenous models, the only time you concern yourself with the models themselves is when they are being removed from the board. In this case, the rules are quite clear and explicit, no one roles armor saves on a model by model basis.

Per the rules, the exception (specifically called "Mixed Armor Saves" on page 16 and specifically mentioned as an exception) is for units containing models whose armor saves are not entirely homogenous. There is also an exception listed for units lead by an independent character, but again that is an exception and is specifically called out as an exception.

Mixed Saves is not an exception. Same saves is not the base rule. They are both simply methods of satisfying the rule as per page 12, Hit, Wound, Allocate wound, Take save, apply result; on a model per model basis. The very begnining of the "Allocate Wounds and Remove Casulaties" section says you are to "allocate wounds and take saves" and then details the two methods of doing so.

They are expedient methods of achieving the end result but neither of them change the nature of when a wound is allocated nor when it becomes unsaved.

Mixed Saves is on Page 15 and I don't see anything saying it is an exception on that page or Pg 16 ?

Anyway this is pointless going around and around, particularly since the Update has made it clear that this is the correct interpretation.