Heldrake double whammy legal?

[Magpie]

[*]A flyer that fires one weapon in the shooting phase via Vector Strike is firing, but - notwithstanding that fact - it can still elect to move Flat Out "instead of firing" because it can make a shooting attack at a target other than the target of the Vector Strike.[/list]
I'm pretty sure you're saying #2, but can you clarify, please?

Yep #2 is the one. It is still able to fire

[ted1138]

If a Heldrake uses VS, it can't shoot or Flat-Out that turn, as there is no rule in the BRB that says a Zooming Flyer can fire four weapons, the 'counts as firing one weapon' applies to the weapons on the Heldrake, thus reducing the number of weapons it can fire in the shooting phase to zero.

If you disagree with what I say, fine. But have the decency to not resort to petty insults and bullying, and maybe try going back and looking at the rules with an open mind...

[Mr Mystery]

Okay.

Vector Strike specifically. I have a Hive Tyrant. I give him wings, Scything Talons, Lash Whip and Bonesword. Assuming I generate or purchase no ranged psychic powers, he is a pure melee creature.

According to your logic, he therefore cannot vector strike, because he has no ranged weapons to sacrifice in order to do so.

And in relation to your quoted rule, it does not say 'counts has having fired one of it's weapons. And on that, your argument carries no weight.

[ted1138]

Okay.

Vector Strike specifically. I have a Hive Tyrant. I give him wings, Scything Talons, Lash Whip and Bonesword. Assuming I generate or purchase no ranged psychic powers, he is a pure melee creature.

According to your logic, he therefore cannot vector strike, because he has no ranged weapons to sacrifice in order to do so.

And in relation to your quoted rule, it does not say 'counts has having fired one of it's weapons. And on that, your argument carries no weight.

Not having a ranged weapon does not prevent you from Vector Striking(there is no 'sacrifice ranged weapon to Vector Strike' rule), Vector Striking only prevents you from firing one of your weapons in the shooting phase(if you have one). And it doesn't have to say "one of it's weapons" to mean one of it's weapons, as what other weapons could it possibly mean? And don't say 'from it's zooming flyers 4 weapons', unless of course you can quote that rule as well...

[Mr Mystery]

Not having a ranged weapon does not prevent you from Vector Striking(there is no 'sacrifice ranged weapon to Vector Strike' rule), Vector Striking only prevents you from firing one of your weapons in the shooting phase(if you have one). And it doesn't have to say "one of it's weapons" to mean one of it's weapons, as what other weapons could it possibly mean? And don't say 'from it's zooming flyers 4 weapons', unless of course you can quote that rule as well...

Actually, in order to actually mean 'one of it's weapons' the rule has to actually specify counts as having fired one of it's weapons in order to support you. It of course doesn't. It using the term 'a weapon'. This does not therefore limit the firing of a sole weapon.

[Magpie]

as there is no rule in the BRB that says a Zooming Flyer can fire four weapons,

Page 80
"Zooming flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full ballistic skill"
Pretty much covers it.

VC isn't a "weapon" in the conventional sense but it counts as one, so the Helldrake has 2 things that count as weapons.

[ted1138]

Actually, in order to actually mean 'one of it's weapons' the rule has to actually specify counts as having fired one of it's weapons in order to support you. It of course doesn't. It using the term 'a weapon'. This does not therefore limit the firing of a sole weapon.

In the case of the Heldrake, it only has one weapon, so it's not hard to figure out which one "counts as" having been fired. And it says "one weapon" not "a weapon", and even if it did say that, it would mean the same thing...

[Mr Mystery]

In the case of the Heldrake, it only has one weapon, so it's not hard to figure out which one "counts as" having been fired. And it says "one weapon" not "a weapon", and even if it did say that, it would mean the same thing...

But that's categorically not what the rule says. It counts as having fire a weapon. Not one of it's weapons. And Zooming, the Heldrake can, in the shooting phase, fire up to four weapons. If it had performed a Vector Strike, it has three weapons left to fire. The actual number of weapons on the model is thus immaterial. There is no exclusion clause here.

You're attempting a RaW argument, and then trying to support it with RaI. That's how untenable your position is fella.

[ted1138]

Page 80
"Zooming flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full ballistic skill"
Pretty much covers it.

VC isn't a "weapon" in the conventional sense but it counts as one, so the Helldrake has 2 things that count as weapons.

That rule is about how many of your model's weapons can fire at full BS, it is not about how many weapons can or can't fire, ie:

A Zooming Flyer with;

one weapon can fire one weapon at full BS
two weapons can fire two weapons at full BS
three weapons can fire three weapons at full BS
four weapons can fire four weapons at full BS
five weapons can fire four weapons at full BS and one weapon can "snap shot"
six weapons can fire four weapons at full BS and two weapons can "snap shot"
seven weapons can fire four weapons at full BS and three weapons can "snap shot"
etc, etc...


And VS neither is a weapon, nor counts as one, but if you perform it, then you 'count as' having fired one weapon in the shooting phase(you don't actually use that weapon to perform the VS, you just can't use it in the shooting phase)...

[ted1138]

But that's categorically not what the rule says. It counts as having fire a weapon. Not one of it's weapons. And Zooming, the Heldrake can, in the shooting phase, fire up to four weapons. If it had performed a Vector Strike, it has three weapons left to fire. The actual number of weapons on the model is thus immaterial. There is no exclusion clause here.

You're attempting a RaW argument, and then trying to support it with RaI. That's how untenable your position is fella.

A Heldrake cannot fire four weapons, it only has one, and there is no rule that says it can fire four(if I'm wrong, then show me)...